Summon Monster feats and PrCs

[Nail]

I thought it might be fun to post the house rule feats my Clr 19 has. He's focused on summoning - has been since 5th level - and since level 9 he's been in a home-brew PrC that focuses even further on summoning. I (and my DM, I'm sure) would appreciate comments, if you've got 'em.

In addition to the 2 house rule feats below, my Clr 19 has Domain Spontaneity (Summoning). IIRC, that feat is in CD. We've changes the domain spell list, however, so that each level is simply that level's Summon Monster spell. (IOW, we removed the Planar Ally spells from the list. Why have a spell you may never use - due to XP and gp cost - instead of just having the complete SM set?)

FEATS:

SACRED SUMMONING [DIVINE]
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead, caster level 3+.
Benefit: By using a turning attempt as a free action, each creature you conjure with your next conjuration (summoning) spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

note: When I started out, the idea just rankled that my Clr would have to take a useless feat (Spell Focus: conjuration) in order to take an only moderately useful feat (Augment Summoning), all to show the PC was focused on summoning. I invite you to look at the numbers - don't forget to look at AC - giving a +4 to Str and Con of the summoned monsters bumps their combat abilities up to only "acceptable" in most cases.


RAPID SUMMONING [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Sacred Summoning or Augment Summoning
Benefit: You may reduce the casting time of the Summon Monster spell to a standard action.

note: Given the feat chain required, as well as the ridiculous normal casting time.. ...well, this one was a gimme. Why was the summon monster spell 1 round casting time to begin with?

 

[Scion]

I still cant see why you are complaining.

With those feat choices and the domain and the setup of the cleric you are so incredibly over the top above a psion shaper it is actually pretty sick.

I wouldnt fault the psion for complaining about your horrible overpoweredness and needing some 'massive' boosts to make up for it.

 

[Rackhir]

I thought it might be fun to post the house rule feats my Clr 19 has. He's focused on summoning - has been since 5th level - and since level 9 he's been in a home-brew PrC that focuses even further on summoning. I (and my DM, I'm sure) would appreciate comments, if you've got 'em.

In addition to the 2 house rule feats below, my Clr 19 has Domain Spontaneity (Summoning). IIRC, that feat is in CD. We've changes the domain spell list, however, so that each level is simply that level's Summon Monster spell. (IOW, we removed the Planar Ally spells from the list. Why have a spell you may never use - due to XP and gp cost - instead of just having the complete SM set?)

FEATS:

SACRED SUMMONING [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead, caster level 3+.
Benefit: By using a turning attempt as a free action, each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

note: When I started out, the idea just rankled that my Clr would have to take a useless feat (Spell Focus: conjuration) in order to take an only moderately useful feat (Augment Summoning), all to show the PC was focused on summoning. I invite you to look at the numbers - don't forget to look at AC - giving a +4 to Str and Con of the summoned monsters bumps their combat abilities up to only "acceptable" in most cases.


RAPID SUMMONING [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Sacred Summoning or Augment Summoning
Benefit: You may reduce the casting time of the Summon Monster spell to a standard action.

note: Given the feat chain required, as well as the ridiculous normal casting time.. ...well, this one was a gimme. Why was the summon monster spell 1 round casting time to begin with?

Ah these are basically the options that were in Unearthed Arcana done as feats. I don't think that Spell Focus Conj is as useless as a lot of people think. I would agree that summoned creatures do tend to be weak for the level they are summoned at, though the situation starts to improve signifcantly once you hit summon monster VI.

Have you seen the Summon Elemental Monolith in CA? Those are a really nasty summon and with 36hd they get a bunch o extra HP from augment summoning.

 

[Rackhir]

In addition to the 2 house rule feats below, my Clr 19 has Domain Spontaneity (Summoning). IIRC, that feat is in CD. We've changes the domain spell list, however, so that each level is simply that level's Summon Monster spell. (IOW, we removed the Planar Ally spells from the list. Why have a spell you may never use - due to XP and gp cost - instead of just having the complete SM set?)

At least with planar Ally they aren't inclined to come after you as long as you treat them well. I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want to use Planar Binding given the almost guarenteed hostility and the lack of much that they do that you can't accomplish with summon monster.

 

[Nail]

Have you seen the Summon Elemental Monolith in CA? Those are a really nasty summon and with 36hd they get a bunch o extra HP from augment summoning.

Sure.

But consider: The Gate spell is also available at that level, can summon an Elemental Monolith, and you don't need to maintain concentration on it.

OT, but: Gate is a far better spell than Summon Elemental Monolith. That's not really news. As this is the first time I've ever played a long-term PC up to this level, the increase in power of 9th level spells still surprised me. Sure, I've DMed BBEGs with 9th level spells, and I've played in one-shots with 18th -20th level PCs......but it sure is different when you've gradually built your PC up over a few years of playing time. Wow.

 

[Nail]

At least with planar Ally they aren't inclined to come after you as long as you treat them well. I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want to use Planar Binding given the almost guarenteed hostility and the lack of much that they do that you can't accomplish with summon monster.

Right.

My character's PrC allows him to bargain for a better price with Planar Ally....and I like that it's a friendly partnership, rather than the hostile one of Planar Binding (as you point out). However, I've read on these boards that some (Thanee, I think?) have used the Planar Binding often enough to find it useful.

 

[Nail]

I still cant see why you are complaining.......

Hello Scion.

I knew we quit that other thread at the right time. Tempers were rising. Once you've regained yours, perhaps you could type up a useful critique of the feats I've posted. Thanks!

 

[Scion]

My temper wasnt rising in the other thread, you simply refused to answer my questions. Even when I was trying to meet you halfway in your attempted comparison.

While frustrating I simply took it as an unwillingness to defend your position to me, which I found odd given that I know you are capable of doing so.

In any event, if you would like to actually discuss the builds in question I have no problem with that.

But dont take frankness as being upset or hostile. I simply cannot currently fathom your position.

Even with everything else being ignored summoning as a standard action vs the astral constructs 1 round manifestation time makes the summons win. Even if the summons were no where near as good in any situation that alone would still hold true.

But, with everything else tossed onto the top.. wow..

 

[Nail]

My temper wasn’t rising in the other thread, ...

Alright. I believe you.

In any event, if you would like to actually discuss the builds in question I have no problem with that.

Great! Fire away. (Where's the blast-shield on this durn helmet?)

But don’t take frankness as being upset or hostile. I simply cannot currently fathom your position.

Huh. Okay. It always surprises me how often "frankness" is misinterpreted. I'm speaking generally, not casting aspersions, BTW. We must have both been very frank.

I'd rather not derail this thread too much with ancillary topics. In the other thread we seemed to be tying ourselves in knots, rather than constructing valid critiques. I’ve seen it often enough in discussion boards to know it was time to move on. (shrug)

 

[Scion]

In any event, it looks like your guy has the following:

- Ability to spontaneously cast any summon monster spell by converting an equivalent level spell slot
- +2 caster level for all summon monster spells (and possibly other summonings, I dont have that book with me)
- Cast summon monster spells as a standard action (so that even if you choose to metamagic them it will still only be a full round action instead of a 1 round action)
- Spend 1 turn attempt to give the summonings +4 enhancement bonus to str and con
- Access to every level of summon monster
- Potential limitation based on alignment and/or diety (I do not know the specifics here)

Plus all of the clerics beanies:
- d8 hd
- all armor proficiencies
- medium BAB
- 2 good saves
- two domains (one was already chosen above)
- access to full spell list (at level one this gives the cleric more unique spell choices total than a 20th level psion has for powers)
- ability to turn undead
- large amount of spells useable per day (in converting to equivalent spell points the cleric has more than the psion)
- spontaneous cure or inflict
- potential for alignment restricted casting
- ability to turn undead


This guy is a huge powerhouse of destruction and doom, especially with those summon monsters. They are difficult to dispel, they pop into play immediately, they are very tough by spending a resource that the cleric isnt likely to use anyway.

The cleric himself is much, much tougher than the psion could ever hope to be. And with this setup he is also much better at just about everything the psion shaper could do in his specialty.

Summoning those monsters have a lot of in combat potential, but they also have a great deal of 'out' of combat potential.

Their list of special abilities is very broad and they have a large range of spell like abilities as well.


The astral constructs tend to be better bruisers in combat (Generally having better AC and being constructs, although those are typically the main advantages) but the summonings have many other areas where they shine.

But from your arguements in the other thread it seems like the psion being marginally better in one area more than makes up for your characters being better in 'every single other area that there is'.

That just seems wrong to me.