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Sunless Citidel vs. Keep on the Shadowfell
- Thread starter SDOgre
- Start date
Angel Tarragon
Dawn Dragon
And how do the two compare to Scourge of the Howling Horde?
SDOgre
First Post
I remember the Sunless Citidel as an okay adventure with some game mechanic problems. I also remember it as a character churner. At least with us it was.
KotS so far has been mixed as far as difficulty. We just faced Irontooth and it would have been a TPK except for DM generosity letting two characters live.
Spoiler ***
Irontooth was not that tough until he was bloodied. That was the same round characters pushed him next to two other characters. Irontooth was bloodied +1d10 damage and used his duel attack power. Then he used his action point and did it again. 4 attacks wiped out two characters.
Man, level one...
But so far it's a tie for me between Sunless Citidel and KotS.
KotS so far has been mixed as far as difficulty. We just faced Irontooth and it would have been a TPK except for DM generosity letting two characters live.
Spoiler ***
Irontooth was not that tough until he was bloodied. That was the same round characters pushed him next to two other characters. Irontooth was bloodied +1d10 damage and used his duel attack power. Then he used his action point and did it again. 4 attacks wiped out two characters.
Man, level one...
But so far it's a tie for me between Sunless Citidel and KotS.
Nyarlathotep
Explorer
Furtive Noise
First Post
They are both so similar in many ways... exploration of ruined keeps filled w/ kobolds and goblins, descent into secret cultlike (or evil druidic like) areas, potential pipsqueek npc interactions (Meepo, Splug)... that I think the only difference of opinions will lie in the unpredictable ways different groups interact w/ the adventures rather than much intrinsic worth that places one above another.
That said, it seems KotS has a better fleshed out starting town and out of dungeon encounters, which is always nice. I have fond memories of SC and am not yet done w/ the new adventure so its hard for me to say.
That said, it seems KotS has a better fleshed out starting town and out of dungeon encounters, which is always nice. I have fond memories of SC and am not yet done w/ the new adventure so its hard for me to say.
NiTessine
Explorer
Sunless Citadel was good. It had variety in its encounters, and an interesting dungeon. It also gave us Meepo, who grew more or less spontaneously to be one of the signature NPCs of the new edition (and unfortunately started the Drizzt syndrome for kobolds, but in my opinion most of the blame goes to Deekin).
Keep on the Shadowfell, on the other hand, is overly long, repetitive and boring. It has a painfully artificial attempt to recreate Meepo, a starting village that makes no sense and one of the most irritatingly stupid villains I've ever seen. The first half of the module is a railroad into a static dungeon setting that features, among other things, an encounter with infinite enemies and a fight with rats. It felt like the Castle Caldwell Christmas calendar all over again. The whole thing culminates in a fight that plays out like something out of an unpopular WoW instance. To top it off, the turkey costs $30 and is printed on low-quality paper that disintegrates during play. WotC has innovated the disposable adventure module.
It's actually more worthwhile to compare KotS to Scourge of the Howling Horde than Sunless Citadel. SotHH is more recent and the modules are very much alike in style and content. However, the modules take completely different approaches to the dungeon. In SotHH, the dungeon lives. Enemies react to noise and fleeing allies. They have response times. Some of them even have personalities, and there are memorable encounters to be had. Additionally, the dungeon is just the right size to be played in an evening or two.
KotS has none of these things and is way longer than it has any right to be. In fact, going with the MMO comparison, KotS is written to play out just like an instance in World of Warcraft, while SotHH emphasises the strengths of the tabletop RPG over a computer game.
Keep on the Shadowfell, on the other hand, is overly long, repetitive and boring. It has a painfully artificial attempt to recreate Meepo, a starting village that makes no sense and one of the most irritatingly stupid villains I've ever seen. The first half of the module is a railroad into a static dungeon setting that features, among other things, an encounter with infinite enemies and a fight with rats. It felt like the Castle Caldwell Christmas calendar all over again. The whole thing culminates in a fight that plays out like something out of an unpopular WoW instance. To top it off, the turkey costs $30 and is printed on low-quality paper that disintegrates during play. WotC has innovated the disposable adventure module.
It's actually more worthwhile to compare KotS to Scourge of the Howling Horde than Sunless Citadel. SotHH is more recent and the modules are very much alike in style and content. However, the modules take completely different approaches to the dungeon. In SotHH, the dungeon lives. Enemies react to noise and fleeing allies. They have response times. Some of them even have personalities, and there are memorable encounters to be had. Additionally, the dungeon is just the right size to be played in an evening or two.
KotS has none of these things and is way longer than it has any right to be. In fact, going with the MMO comparison, KotS is written to play out just like an instance in World of Warcraft, while SotHH emphasises the strengths of the tabletop RPG over a computer game.
Last edited:
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
Strange - why do your italic tags not work...
Ah, okay - you need to use square brackes!
---
I barely remember the Sunless Citadel. But I remember Meepo (who doesn't). Was the first time I got XP for non-combat activity (coming to an agreement with the Kobolds instead of slaughtering them.)
Keep on the Shadowfell was pretty enjoyable for me so far (this as a DM, unlike SC). I like the background story, and the fact that it's not just dungeon crawling. (But unfortunately, the non-dungeon crawl is mostly over by now...)
Ah, okay - you need to use square brackes!
---
I barely remember the Sunless Citadel. But I remember Meepo (who doesn't). Was the first time I got XP for non-combat activity (coming to an agreement with the Kobolds instead of slaughtering them.)
Keep on the Shadowfell was pretty enjoyable for me so far (this as a DM, unlike SC). I like the background story, and the fact that it's not just dungeon crawling. (But unfortunately, the non-dungeon crawl is mostly over by now...)
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I've been a DM for both (played in neither).
I think that KotS is a superior adventure to the Sunless citadel from my DM point of view.
1) There is a lot more detail and character to the starting village, including a variety of NPCs which my players have enjoyed interacting with.
2) There are several adventure sites (kobold ambushes, kobold caves, digs) as well as the keep itself - rather than just one dungeon.
3) Nicer range of opponents and challenges in KotS to my mind.
On the other hand there were three aspects which I think were a win for SC
a) the imagery of a citadel swallowed up in the earth was great - even if it didn't actually come into play.
b) I prefer the SC situation with two competing forces (kobolds and goblins) in the dungeon - it automatically opened up possibilities for negotiation and subterfuge which are not there to the same extend when the dungeon is filled with 'one big happy family'.
c) There was a dragon to fight in it! (Calcryx).
I liked the way that 3e modules 1 & 2 had dragons to fight in them from the word go - pretty nice in 'Dungeons and Dragons'
So my judgement:
KotS wins on 'outside the dungeon NPCs', non-linearity, general encounter design
SC wins on 'inside the dungeon NPCs - rival communities', including dragon foes.
Cheers
I think that KotS is a superior adventure to the Sunless citadel from my DM point of view.
1) There is a lot more detail and character to the starting village, including a variety of NPCs which my players have enjoyed interacting with.
2) There are several adventure sites (kobold ambushes, kobold caves, digs) as well as the keep itself - rather than just one dungeon.
3) Nicer range of opponents and challenges in KotS to my mind.
On the other hand there were three aspects which I think were a win for SC
a) the imagery of a citadel swallowed up in the earth was great - even if it didn't actually come into play.
b) I prefer the SC situation with two competing forces (kobolds and goblins) in the dungeon - it automatically opened up possibilities for negotiation and subterfuge which are not there to the same extend when the dungeon is filled with 'one big happy family'.
c) There was a dragon to fight in it! (Calcryx).
I liked the way that 3e modules 1 & 2 had dragons to fight in them from the word go - pretty nice in 'Dungeons and Dragons'
So my judgement:
KotS wins on 'outside the dungeon NPCs', non-linearity, general encounter design
SC wins on 'inside the dungeon NPCs - rival communities', including dragon foes.
Cheers
