Superior Cover from Allies?

[godfear]

It's well established that allies can grant you cover from enemies, but is there a reason why they couldn't grant superior cover? By the cover RAW, it seems like they should.

Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.

So, wouldn't a set up like this:

#A##
MA#E
#A##

# = Open space
M = Me
A = Ally
E = Enemy

...result in superior cover for me? The enemy can't draw an unblocked line to any part of my square. Logically, he'd have line of sight and line of effect, but it seems to me that he'd suffer the penalty for superior cover rather than just cover.

-g

Edit: Or is the "Creatures and Cover" part of the cover rules the exception, and the extra mention of creatures in the Determining Cover part just more confusing than is strictly necessary?

 

[Lauberfen]

I think you probably can technically get superior cover as you've described.

However it's pretty dodgy, depending on diagonals and fine positioning- in my group we just say the best you get from allies is cover, to avoid fiddling around with lines, stepping sideways etc. It might be fair to say that if you have 2 ranks of allies granting cover then you have superior cover, but this is not RAW- with any depth of ranks, you could still have regular cover firing straight down one of the lines.

 

[bfreakb999]

superior cover

i can see what you mean, and i suppose it would really be up to the DM. I'm a firm believer that anything the players do to stay out of harms way like what you have mentioned, my monsters should be able to do the same. I however can sense the large amount of complaints i would get if i had minions/soldiers all guard a controller/artillery(leader) that consistently does massive amounts of dpr to the PC's. So far we've only allowed to have the best defense be "cover", but i'm interested in seeing how this idea might play out just for fun...

I would ask your DM to see if it's causes any difficulty in your game. if so, then just accept the cover. (besides.. i doubt your defenses are really that low. )

 

[NMcCoy]

Strictly speaking per your diagram and the rules phrasing, even with your interpretation you wouldn't have superior cover in that particular arrangement - Two of the lines run between two of your allies, along the edge of those allies' spaces and thus are not blocked. Two allies are not a single coherent obstacle. If you moved the enemy two squares northward, you'd have a better case.

As you can see, determining superior cover from allies is a tricky situation, and often unintuitive - for speed of play, I recommend not allowing it.

 

[Whimsical]

I think that the ability to get superior cover from an ally would make a great feat, or a special for a controller, artillery, skirmisher, or, lurker.

 

[BobTheNob]

I think that the ability to get superior cover from an ally would make a great feat, or a special for a controller, artillery, skirmisher, or, lurker.

This is the way to think about it. To try an construe superior cover above what is currently the acecpted norm through positioning is just handing the players a freebie in that they have a new way to become more powerful without really having done much for it.
However, if you make it a feat...that gets interesting.
Something like
Feat : Shield Wall (not sure if name already used)
Prequisites : whatever (sort out some other time), requires Large Shield
You count as superior cover for ranged fire
Then you have something that allows your defender to act like mobile superior cover i.e. clunks around the battlefield keeping his shield high and offering very little room for enemies to shoot around, making the character very tactically interesting. Being a feat it ties this into character build and growth and adds that "Cool, I just got alot better" effect, rewarding player investment

 

[Tremorsense]

The enemy can't draw an unblocked line to any part of my square. Logically, he'd have line of sight and line of effect, but it seems to me that he'd suffer the penalty for superior cover rather than just cover.

Under Determining Cover in the phb is says:

(A line isn’t blocked if it
runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s
square.)

As far as I can tell, that means a row of medium or small creatures will only ever provide normal cover. Perhaps large allies can provide superior cover, but I wouldn't play it that way (just to keep things speedy).

 

[godfear]

Thanks for the feedback. A player of mine asked this question and so I started obsessing about it yesterday while bored at work. Regular cover it is. : )

-g

 

[Ladislaus]

It's well established that allies can grant you cover from enemies, but is there a reason why they couldn't grant superior cover? By the cover RAW, it seems like they should.

Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack's origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn't blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle's or an enemy's square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.

Yes, allies may grant Superior Cover from an enemy's ranged attack. Note my emphasis in the rules quote above. Since enemies may grant Cover, they may also grant Superior Cover.

So, wouldn't a set up like this:

#A##
MA#E
#A##

# = Open space
M = Me
A = Ally
E = Enemy

...result in superior cover for me?

In your example, M would only have Cover from E's ranged attack because of the "(A line isn't blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle's or an enemy's square.)" rule.

However, in the following examples M would have Superior Cover from E's ranged attack:

#A#E
#A##
MA##

A##E
#A##
M#A#

 

[N0Man]

However, in the following examples M would have Superior Cover from E's ranged attack:

#A#E
#A##
MA##

A##E
#A##
M#A#

Good examples, I would agree that those would provide superior cover. I'd also agree with above that by the rules, a large creature would provide superior cover as well.

I'm glad this was brought up though, I had not really considered these situations, but I'll make sure to keep this in mind next time I'm in a ranged situation.