Superior Training

[77IM]

I have been thinking about superior weapons lately, and how they are kind of broken, since they obsolete military weapons. What I mean is, if you are playing a melee character, there's almost no reason not to spend the feat and get a superior weapon. For example, the bastard sword is better than both the longsword and the greatsword -- there's no reason to use either of those when bastard sword is just a feat away (or if you definitely want to be a 2-hander, get fullblade, that thing rocks). Sure, you could stick with the inferior weapon and pile on feats, like Weapon Focus, but the superior weapon's damage increase stacks with all of that. Sure, superior weapons cost a feat, but feats are relatively cheap, and considering [W] multipliers, getting a superior weapon is well worth it. The problem is even worse comparing superior weapons to simple weapons.

The problem is that some players may want to wield inferior weapons for role-playing reasons. For example, a follower of the Raven Queen who wants to carry a scythe, or a sword-and-board fighter who likes the look of the longsword and can't picture their character holding something as redonkulously long as a bastard sword. Of course one easy solution is to just reskin existing items -- get an execution axe and just call it a scythe. I find this vaguely unsatisfactory, though, because the match-up is rarely perfect and because it still puts the focus on the item rather than the character.

So I invented a feat. The goal is to make military and simple weapons competitive with superior weapons, while keeping them mechanically different, and for the same cost (1 feat).

Heroic Tier Feat:

SUPERIOR TRAINING
Benefit: Choose a specific military or simple weapon with which you are proficient. You get a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls with such weapons. If it's a simple weapon, the weapon die increases by one size when you wield it.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon.​

What to you guys think: Is a +1 attack bonus overpowered?

-- 77IM

 

[inkpenavenger]

I think this feat is a great idea. It allows a player to give his/her character the weapon they want to use while still allowing them to take advantage of better attack rates. However, simply adding +1 to the attack roll puts short swords and longswords up to an effective +4 prof. bonus. Here would be my take on it:

SUPERIOR WEAPON TRAINING
Benefit: Choose a specific military or simple weapon with which you are proficient. You treat it as having a +3 proficiency bonus when you wield it.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon.

All the superior weapons in the PHB have a +3 prof. bonus. Not so in AV, but those that don't have extra qualities. But overall, I like the idea of this feat. Allows the classic cleric with chainmail, light shield, and mace to be as effective as the paladin with a longsword. Nice.

 

[ArtofSymmetry]

This is a really good Idea, I approve. Supierior Slings and Supierior Quarterstaves! Whew!
Also, I have a question on a similar note (Not worth starting a new thread). Do you think the prereqs on Burning Blizzard and the feats that give spells extra damage should be changed? I don't think it's very fair that Fighters get Weapon Focus for free and Wizards have to have 13 wisdom and 13 int.
Also, what would be the prereqs for this feat be? I've never actually delved into the weapons since I've only played a warlock and wiz, but don't you have to be a certain level or have a certain BAB to wield supierior?

 

[Paultimatum]

I like the idea, but I think the main difference between different classes of weapons is the damage, not the attack. If you treated the weapon as +3 proficiency, like ink said, the feat would be useless for quite a few weapons. It's true that +4 could be excessive though, and the dagger wielding rogue would be ridiculous, especially with the damage die increase (it is a simple weapon isn't it? I don't have the books with me) but even just with the effective +5. This feat might actually help classes without military proficiency in a weapon type more, saving them a feat in some cases. It could be good to give military weapons some more use, especially with AV items (the 1 handed d12 war axe that I didn't notice before for example), but I think there are reasons why they made there be some weapons that are better. Reskinning would probably be easier, or inventing a superior version of a weapon ,like the scythe example. There are some threads that mention this I think.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Superior weapons bother me too, particularly the ones from AV (craghammer? mordenkrad? Are you serious?).

Instead, I intend to adopt a system of increasing proficiency with a weapon... So... you can have Simple, Military, and Superior proficiency with just about any weapon (staff, club, and greatclub don't have military/superior levels, and most weapons have Military proficiency at a minimum, with a few being superior-only), and each has different stats/abilities for doing so. Basically, instead of having an "executioner's axe" you just pick Superior Proficiency with a greataxe. Exactly the same end result in damage/whatever, but doesn't require a silly weapon.

Of course... using this system did require me to make stats for Military/Superior proficiency with all weapons... and, after a while, you kinda run out of ideas. Still, I'm not opposed to having overlap in weapon stats, as long as they belong in different weapons groups.

 

[Smeelbo]

The problem is that the Superior versions of a weapon almost always give damage bonuses, not proficiency/attack bonuses, so the solution probably looks more like this:

Improved Weapon Focus
Requires: Weapon Focus
Choose a specific simple or military weapon from a group you have Weapon Focus for. That weapon gains Brutal +1 for each tier of play.

That approximates the effect of increasing the die size of [W], which is what most superior weapons do, and scales appropriately.

Smeelbo

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

How messed up would it be to go with a simple change of [W] value.. but not by scaling..

Chose a specific simple or military weapon and add 1D6 to the weapons base damage

ie. Longsword's [W] value is 1D8. In the hands of a specially trained fighter it becomes 1D8 & 1D6....
so a 2[W] power would deal 2D8 + 2D6 as a base.

Has the bonus of being able to roll more dice!

 

[77IM]

After seeing Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise, I am convinced that a +1 attack is balanced, especially when it is traded-off versus an increase in [W]. (In other words, if a +3/d10 bastard sword is balanced with a +2/d12 waraxe, both should also be balanced with a +4/d8 longsword, which is what this feat gives you.) The reason I like the attack bonus, instead of a straight damage increase, is because it makes the character with Superior Training (longsword) actually different than the one with Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) -- it offers a credible reason for why some characters might prefer the classic longsword and greatsword over the superior version.

My only reservations are the dagger (because rogue weapon talent effectively makes the dagger into a military weapon) and the two-handed simple weapons (which are not as good as two-handed superior weapons even if you give them both +1 attack and increase [W]). However, creating special exceptions for these leads me down the path proposed by BarkingDeathSquirrel, which seems like too much trouble.

-- 77IM

 

[BobTheNob]

Im not too bad on the superior weapons gig. Ammusingly So far no-one in my campaign has acutally taken one (though we have only 2 "powergamers"...me, the DM, and a guy playing a laser cleric).

What DOES miff me though is the fact that weapon based classes have a way of "upping the dice" on attacks whereas non weapon based attacks dont. There are already mechnics to increase to-hit and bonus damage in place (and p.s. putting a "feat" bonus on wouldnt help as most would end up taking expertise anyway and it wouldnt stack) and I think there is room for mechanics to increase the dice used, I just wish there was consistency between weapon based and non weapon based mechanics in this regard

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Except, based on some DDI material I saw, they're releasing "superior implements" with the PHB3, I believe. I don't think it creates new implements, but rather ups your damage dice when using said implement.

Soon, we'll be able to fill every single feat slot with nothing but attack and damage bonuses! Joy!