Surprise Attacks

[Oryan77]

I was wondering how everyone handles a character initiating an attack in a scenario like this:

PCs are talking to an NPC. Both sides are obviously aware of each other. The conversation gets heated and a PC thinks that the NPC is probably going to cast a spell at them once he is done with his monologue. So not to take any chances, the PC casts a silence spell at the NPC in mid sentence.

In 2e, we used to have everyone roll to see if they are surprised, roll initiative, let the character cast the spell, everyone who is not surprised could react after that character casts, and then everyone goes in order of initiative after the surprise round. It's been awhile, but I think it went something like that.

When I first DMed 3e (with different players), everyone got upset when I handled a surprise action like that. They pointed me to the 3e rule that states that anyone not aware of the other people are surprised. So simply knowing that someone is there is enough to keep you from being surprised.

This has always made it hard for me to make characters be cinematic during roleplaying. For example:

Last session the PCs were talking to a very powerful NPC. During the talk, the PCs were being a bit obnoxious and this serious evil NPC was getting tired of their antics. So I wanted to have him cast Hypnotic Pattern just to shut them up so they know he means business. But I did not want them to think that he was casting a spell to start combat. But the 3e rules makes it hard to do that if everyone is aware, rolls initiative, and a PC beats the NPCs initiative and attacks him before he gets his spell off (thinking the NPC might be trying to harm them).

In 2e, we interpreted a surprise round as being surprised by the action that someone does. So just because you see the guy while your talking, you may not expect him to attack you (maybe it's a bad guy that you thought was an ally).

An obvious example for how the 3e ruling messes up a good scene is the Hans Solo & Greedo scene in Star Wars (Hans shoots first). If Greedo is not aware that Hans has a gun pointed at him, then how can he "beat" Hans initiative and fire before Hans decides to fire. He was aware of Hans, but not necessarily that Hans was going to attack him. But in 3e D&D, if Hans stated that he shoots Greedo, then they roll for initiative and if Greedo beats his initiative, then he gets to shoot at Hans first as if he knew Hans decided to attack.

So do you guys ever have scenarios like this? If so, do you do it by the book or do you ask for spot checks to notice the action rather than the person?

 

[krupintupple]

like you, i've played 2e and 3e, so hopefully my perspectives on the issue of surprise will help out.

as you've mentioned, the 2e system was fine, for 2e, but times have changed. the way that i deal with surprise in 3e isn't really to unsimilar than how you've ran it. the way that your players reacted though, is partially understandable but ultimately odd, because they're ignoring other important factors in the game.

basically, even if everyone is fully aware of someone, like in your scenario, i have people roll skill checks to determine who's paying attention to the ebb and flow of things. skills like spot, listen, or sense motive are perfect for this, because they let you know how "tuned in" to the subtleties of the action your PCs are. you may roll an opposed check, or just state a flat DC, typically 20 or higher, to indicate that they've noticed something and are not surprised.

for example:
let's assume that the PCs are out in public and are watching a traveling circus, but are unaware that one of the masked performers is actually a deadly assassin, hired by their enemies. this is especially dangerous, because, should the assassin be able to watch them for 3 rounds, he could suddenly opt for a full-attack option and hurl multiple poisoned blades at them, potentially killing or poisoning half of the party! instead, you could use the following rubric to determine who's actually surprised:

First, ask each PC to roll a spot, sense motive, or a knowledge (local). The benefit here is that there's a chance that more than one of them are going to be able to make these checks, and thusly, survive the assassination attempt.

Anyone who rolls a DC 25 spot, for example, is told the following:
"You note the accuracy and grace that one of the performers, in particular displays with his blades. They glide through the air with the skill of someone who's spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours around knifes. They seem to sheen as if they've been freshly greased against rust, or have some other substance upon them. You'll be sure to keep an eye on this fellow, just in case..."

Anyone who rolls a DC 25 listen, is told the following:
"You hear the whirling swish of the daggers effortlessly meet their marks, in bales of hay nearby. They neither clatter, nor falter - the blades are silent death. You suspect anyone who could toss blades so accurately must have considerable talent. Perhaps it may be beneficial to be mindful of such a skilled individual..."

Anyone who rolls a DC 25 knowledge (local), is told the following:
"This must be the famed 'Troubadours of the Gilded Drake'. Their half-draconic ringmaster is quite the sight, with his booming voice, frightful wings, and grand bravado. However, you notice something odd - last you heard, they only had a lone blade-tosser, but now they've got two. Now that you think about it, you recall overhearing some of their talent, complaining over pints last night, over the new hotshot that showed up out of nowhere. Hmm, better keep watch over this new stranger..."

given, it's not perfect, but i've found that there's few complaints, and really helps give characters a reason for actively wanting to get different stats. sometimes, you could even raise or lower the DC to 25 or 15, depending on the situation, or even add some of their adversaries' skills to work against them (ie: DC is 20 + his ranks in hide, to note him working the crowd).

some further examples:
knowledge (religion) "Hmm, that's odd, Cuthberites don't touch alcohol..."

knowledge (nobility) "Wait, wasn't the Duke on vacation?"

craft (alchemy) "Weird. This guy's gloves smell exactly like...poison (or) a
specific spell component?"

craft (swordsmithing) "He claims that blade's dull and pitted, but it's razor sharp."

spellcraft "Now why would the good Senator be nervously gesticulating his hands in the mode of black necromancy?"

the list goes on, but you've probably gotten the idea by now. let me know how it works out for you.

 

[HoboGod]

As DM, feel free to cheat. If it were a Silent Still Hypnotic Pattern, the players wouldn't be alerted. Sure, he might not have those feats and it might bring the spell to a higher than he can cast, but your players don't need to know that.

Generally, I see the Hans Solo example as Hans Solo rolling a Slight of Hand check to go for his gun without Greedo noticing. It's the way I WOULD let players attack NPCs during their monologue as a surprise round, but I generally don't allow it because other players like listening to the BBEG's insane, egotistical speech before they kick his butt.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I was wondering how everyone handles a character initiating an attack in a scenario like this:

PCs are talking to an NPC. Both sides are obviously aware of each other. The conversation gets heated and a PC thinks that the NPC is probably going to cast a spell at them once he is done with his monologue. So not to take any chances, the PC casts a silence spell at the NPC in mid sentence.

As soon as the PC declares his intent to attack, I call for everyone to roll initiative.

Last session the PCs were talking to a very powerful NPC. During the talk, the PCs were being a bit obnoxious and this serious evil NPC was getting tired of their antics. So I wanted to have him cast Hypnotic Pattern just to shut them up so they know he means business. But I did not want them to think that he was casting a spell to start combat.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what he's doing. The Rules Compendium has rules for unobtrusive spellcasting that might help in such a situation, but they require ranks in Sleight of Hand, which many spellcasters won't have. I would also allow a Bluff to misdirect the PCs' attention long enough to get the spell off.

An obvious example for how the 3e ruling messes up a good scene is the Hans Solo & Greedo scene in Star Wars (Hans shoots first). If Greedo is not aware that Hans has a gun pointed at him, then how can he "beat" Hans initiative and fire before Hans decides to fire. He was aware of Hans, but not necessarily that Hans was going to attack him. But in 3e D&D, if Hans stated that he shoots Greedo, then they roll for initiative and if Greedo beats his initiative, then he gets to shoot at Hans first as if he knew Hans decided to attack.

In such a situation, I'd probably let Han make a Hide check (hey, his hand has cover under the table, right?) to draw the gun unnoticed. If Greedo Spots the move, they roll initiative; otherwise, Han gets a surprise attack.

 

[Oryan77]

First, ask each PC to roll a spot, sense motive, or a knowledge (local). The benefit here is that there's a chance that more than one of them are going to be able to make these checks, and thusly, survive the assassination attempt.

Are you saying that even though the PCs see the assassin performing (although they might not realize he's a potential enemy and think he's just a performer), you still allow them to do skill checks to see if they notice him about to execute an attack? If they fail the check, they are surprised even though they are "aware" that the guy was performing for the audience? Sorry, I was a bit unclear about this from your post.

It sounds like that is what you do, which is what I'd like to do in my game. But according to the surprise rule, the PCs wouldn't need to do a skill check for surprise since they are already aware of the performer. They would just roll initiative.

I'm just wondering what most people do in this situation. I have a good group of players now that probably would let me bend the rules on this. So I'm sure I can houserule it if I wanted, but I want to make sure I'm not wrong about the correct rule first. Or that I'm overlooking something that may make it a bad houserule.

If it were a Silent Still Hypnotic Pattern, the players wouldn't be alerted......Hans Solo rolling a Slight of Hand check to go for his gun without Greedo noticing.

I would also allow a Bluff to misdirect the PCs' attention long enough to get the spell off....I'd probably let Han make a Hide check (hey, his hand has cover under the table, right?) to draw the gun unnoticed.

Well I'm really just wondering about this in a generic way. Not necessarily a situation where someone is trying to be sneaky, he's just trying to act first while people may not expect it.

Even in the Hans vs Greedo scenario, by the rules, a player would argue that Greedo is "aware" of Hans regardless of whether he sees the gun or not. Cause that's what the rules say, you just gotta be aware of the person, not the actual threat. I'd rather do what you guys are saying and call for some sleight of hand (or hide) vs spot checks. But a rules lawyer would not go for it.

But if I were to allow checks for a situation like that (being sneaky), I see it as being no different than if a person was just trying to react first while people least expect it (not being sneaky).

So to dumb it down more, forget about spellcasting, or using special feats/skills to get away with it. Let's just say 4 PCs are having dinner at a table with a friendly NPC. Everyone is eating and chatting away, and the NPC lifts up a Hand X-bow he had loaded under the table and fires at a PC who is stuffing his mouth with bread. The NPC isn't even trying to be sneaky with the attack, he just lifts and fires. Say the PC is even looking at the NPC while he was taking the bite out of his bread.

By the rules, everyone rolls for initiative since everyone is aware of the NPC. But to me, being aware of the action is what is important, not the person. It doesn't make sense to me that a guy taking a bite out of bread can roll initiative, get the highest initiative, and act first (maybe throws a dagger at the NPC before he shoots the bolt) when he had no reason to suspect that the NPC was a traitor.

I guess it doesn't even need to be a surprise round. It could be a sort of before-initiative readied action that allows the NPC to act first in the round and everyone rolls initiative and acts after the NPC. Can the Ready Action rule be used like that legally? (I.E. "I ready an action to shoot my hand x-bow at BBEG if he keeps talking, even though combat hasn't started yet.")

 

[Vegepygmy]

Even in the Hans vs Greedo scenario, by the rules, a player would argue that Greedo is "aware" of Hans regardless of whether he sees the gun or not. Cause that's what the rules say, you just gotta be aware of the person, not the actual threat.

That's not what the rules say, actually.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

The DM determines who is aware of whom at the start of a battle. He may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks to see how aware the adventurers are of their opponents. PHB page 137.

This language is all any DM needs to refute the claim that you just have to be aware of the person, not the threat they pose. First, it explicitly says that the DM determines who is aware of whom. So that's it, then. Are you the DM? Then you determine awareness, not anybody else at the table. Second, I would argue that it is implicit in the surprise rules that one must regard the "other side" as an enemy or threat; if you don't perceive them as a threat, how do you know what "side" they are on? Third, the rules specifically state that the DM may call for checks other than Listen and Spot; if all you have to do is be aware of the person's presence, what other checks could they be referring to? Lastly, the words "how aware" suggest that awareness isn't simply a matter of perceiving another's presence; you may know they are there and still not be aware enough of the danger they present to you.

I'd rather do what you guys are saying and call for some sleight of hand (or hide) vs spot checks. But a rules lawyer would not go for it.

(1) Who cares? I'm a rules lawyer myself, but if the DM tells me to sit down and shut up, I do it. And if I don't, he should kick me out for being a disruptive jerk.
(2) Ask the rules lawyer to show you where the rules say awareness of the other person's presence is enough. He won't be able to do it. The most he'll be able to do is argue that there are no examples in the rules of other kinds of surprise situations. Then ask him what checks besides Listen and Spot might be used to determine awareness of another person's presence. (Search is about the only one I can imagine would apply, and even that's a stretch.)

So to dumb it down more, forget about spellcasting, or using special feats/skills to get away with it. Let's just say 4 PCs are having dinner at a table with a friendly NPC. Everyone is eating and chatting away, and the NPC lifts up a Hand X-bow he had loaded under the table and fires at a PC who is stuffing his mouth with bread. The NPC isn't even trying to be sneaky with the attack, he just lifts and fires. Say the PC is even looking at the NPC while he was taking the bite out of his bread.

By the rules, everyone rolls for initiative since everyone is aware of the NPC. But to me, being aware of the action is what is important, not the person. It doesn't make sense to me that a guy taking a bite out of bread can roll initiative, get the highest initiative, and act first (maybe throws a dagger at the NPC before he shoots the bolt) when he had no reason to suspect that the NPC was a traitor.

The underlined part is what causes me to disagree with you. IMO, it's not enough to simply be the first to declare hostile intent. There are physical cues (body language, tells, etc.) that may give away one's intent; and there's always the mysterious "sixth sense" that warns a hero of danger just before it strikes. How do we know none of the PCs noticed the crossbow under the table? How did the NPC load it without anyone seeing or hearing it? And how do you know the PCs have no reason to suspect the NPC is a traitor? No, if you want to get the drop on somebody, you're going to have to try, IMO. Your effort may be represented by a Bluff check, a Hide check, a Sleight of Hand check, or something else altogether, but I wouldn't allow any character to surprise another character who knows he is right there without giving the "surprisee" a chance to avoid it.

I guess it doesn't even need to be a surprise round. It could be a sort of before-initiative readied action...

No, no, no, no, no! There is (or should be) no such thing as a readied action outside of the initiative order. That way lies madness.

 

[Dandu]

That's not what the rules say, actually.

That's not even how the movie goes.

 

[Cor_Malek]

I dunno, there's a lot of ambiguous rules in DnD, and reading RAI is always important, and can cause problems. But not once had I any discussions over this one. Obviously, when PC's are sneaking up on goblins, as soon they're seen they're considered a threat. No matter how narrative the game, PC's tend to fight with critters/people where enmity is known for both sides, so it makes sense to phrase it as it is in the rulebooks. When situation changes, rules get to be adjusted. Apparently is clearer for someone who remembers different phrasing from 2e, but it's not really necessary - ie I started DnD with 3.5 after Rolemaster.

In 3.5 - I always looked at drawing weapons as a way to emulate this, and quick draw as a way around it to be able to go for surprise for martials. If the weapons are drawn, highly trained and battle experienced thugs adventurers clearly expect things to go south. Spending 6 seconds at incantation or getting a bow out, putting arrow on and firing would hardly catch anyone by surprise.
If some magic user wants to surprise anyone when casting a spell - he'd better have still/silent feats. With one of them, I'd allow arcane/spellcraft roll to see if someone is caught off guard, or if they notice half of spell-prep. The magic user could speak under his breath/make delicate gestures, which would call for bluff v perception to see if spellcraft is allowed.

Han Solo used his thievery/sleight of hand skill to draw weapon (apparently didn't have the quick draw so he had to delay it with conversation), so he started the combat with a sneak attack, pretty much like hidden/invisible foe would do.
edit: On the other hand, if you remember Inglorious Bastards tavern scene - both sides used sleight of hand to draw their weapons, so while the villain thought he'd get a surprise round - everyone got to roll the initiative (won if I recall correctly by Stiglitz).

Bottom line - rules are DM tools, not the other way around yadi yadi yada...

 

[Oryan77]

Ok, let me start off by saying that I'm in no way trying to argue with you. I actually want to agree. I'm just making sure I'm understanding the ruling correctly is all. When I have a rules lawyer trying to argue with me at the table, I like to make sure I know exactly what I'm talking about.

That's not what the rules say, actually.

If you're saying what I was hoping for (that my interpretation of the rule was wrong), then I'm a little confused why you responded with this:

As soon as the PC declares his intent to attack, I call for everyone to roll initiative.

in regards to this:

I was wondering how everyone handles a character initiating an attack in a scenario like this:

PCs are talking to an NPC. Both sides are obviously aware of each other. The conversation gets heated and a PC thinks that the NPC is probably going to cast a spell at them once he is done with his monologue. So not to take any chances, the PC casts a silence spell at the NPC in mid sentence.

Were you just referring to the fact that the PC may not have been using Sleight of Hand, Hide, or some type of feat to get the jump on the NPC with the spell (since I didn't mention him trying to be sneaky about it)?

to see how aware the adventurers are of their opponents.

This is the part that I like the most. I can actually use the line "how aware" as ammo in defending my ruling.

The most he'll be able to do is argue that there are no examples in the rules of other kinds of surprise situations.

And that is exactly what happened when this rule was brought up to me. It doesn't help my cause when all 3 examples given in the PHB are all situations where the PCs don't see the NPCs before the fight begins. They are all examples of whether or not the PCs saw the NPC and was aware of them.

This was years ago when I debated this issue with the former players. But they made valid points and I couldn't really dispute them due to the way the rule is written and the examples given.

IMO, it's not enough to simply be the first to declare hostile intent. There are physical cues (body language, tells, etc.) that may give away one's intent; and there's always the mysterious "sixth sense" that warns a hero of danger just before it strikes.

True. In all honesty, I probably would (or will) always give PCs or NPCs the chance to roll awareness checks no matter how implausible I think reacting to it first would be. That's basically what we did in 2e and I was just using that example to show how simply being "aware" of a person was not enough to not allow a skill check for surprise. It's the action that they should be aware of.

No, no, no, no, no! There is (or should be) no such thing as a readied action outside of the initiative order. That way lies madness.

Well I brought it up because you can Ready an action outside of initiative order by declaring things like, "I aim an arrow at the door, if anyone walks through it, I shoot at them." And that actually can be done outside of initiative order as far as I know. So I was thinking about it in that way. But it doesn't matter if I actually am allowed to require checks for awareness even if both sides see each other & someone is wanting to attack stealthily.

Bottom line - rules are DM tools, not the other way around

I really like that. I always say "rules are a DMs tools", but I'll have to start adding that second line to it. Regardless of what a rules lawyering player thinks.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Ok, let me start off by saying that I'm in no way trying to argue with you.

Oh, don't worry! I'm a rules lawyer at the gaming table, and a real lawyer in real life. Arguing with me is like shaking my hand and buying me a beer.

Were you just referring to the fact that the PC may not have been using Sleight of Hand, Hide, or some type of feat to get the jump on the NPC with the spell (since I didn't mention him trying to be sneaky about it)?

Yes.

This is the part that I like the most. I can actually use the line "how aware" as ammo in defending my ruling.

Well I brought it up because you can Ready an action outside of initiative order by declaring things like, "I aim an arrow at the door, if anyone walks through it, I shoot at them." And that actually can be done outside of initiative order as far as I know.

Not according to the DMG (page 26):

Don't allow players to use the ready action outside combat. While the above examples are all acceptable in the middle of an encounter, a player cannot use the ready action to cover a door with his crossbow outside combat. It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware...Otherwise, he still needs to roll initiative for his character normally.