Surprise or no surprise?

[Space Coyote]

In combat, if both sides are "aware" of each other, then the DM and players go to initiative and there is no "surprise" round. Does this following scenario count as being "aware" of the enemy:

Approximately 5 weeks ago (in game time), the party had entered a room through a secret door and encountered 2 iron golems and a spectre. They fled the fight. Then, the party returned to the room 5 week later (last game session). They bypass the trap on the secret door and open it. The golems are still there and the party is ambushed. The spectre has the ability to detect the presence of any living thing within 90', so it had plenty of warning that the party was at the door and commanded the golem to breathe gas as soon as the door was opened. Makes sense to me.

One of the players argued that the golems should not have gotten a surprise action, because *both* parties were aware of each others presence. Now, this time around, the party did NOT detect the presence of the golems or the spectre (no detect evil, no detect golems, no spot checks, no listen checks, nothing to determine the presence of the creatures). The party was just "assuming" that the same enemies were there from before (5 weeks ago).

So, does this scenario qualify as the "party is aware of the enemy"?

 

[Cintra]

If they "assume" the same enemies will be present, but wait to determine their attacks until the door is open so they can see exactly where their enemies are positioned etc. (or so as not to waste spells/ammunition), then they are surprised.

If they say, before opening the door, that they'll take certain actions as soon as the door opens, then both sides are surprising the other (with their actions if not their presence), and I'd run it as a surprise round. But they will have to take exactly the actions they specified, e.g. cast exactly the spell they said, within reasonable parameters. I'd probably let a fighter-type specify he'll charge the "closest target" or the "closest golem" for example. But I wouldn't let the fighter charge someone else if he specified a golem and no golem is visible. (If the area beyond the door is very big, I might even take into account where the party thinks the bad guys will be, and penalize them or disallow an action if it doesn't match decently.) And I wouldn't let a spellcaster change their mind and cast a different spell; choosing not to cast their spell at all would be okay, e.g. if there is a group of people camped in the room instead and they don't want to attack; but the caster would still have spent their action basically aborting their prepped spell. And in that same "folks camping" scenario, the charging fighter would still charge toward the closest foe if that's what he specified, he'd just have to screech to a halt as he sees something other than expected.

This way, they can get benefits for prepping actions, but suffer consequences if they do it every time. (You don't want to create a ruling that results in laborious "I prep this action the moment the door opens" every time they open a door to a new room. Been there. Done that.)

 

[William_2]

In a case like this, with both parties prepared and very cautious, I never consider the possibility of surprise. Yes, the Golem WANTS to breath as soon as the door opens, but that does not mean he (She? It?) is faster than the character who WANTS to dash through the door lightning fast. This is the perfect time for initiative, in my view. Let reflexes decide it. The Golem knows something is coming, but does NOT know the precise instant it will happen, which puts it on a level field with someone who expects trouble of some sort exactly when they open the door.

The idea that every ambush should work, always, comes up frequently, I’ve noticed. My view is always that ones against completely unsuspecting targets should count as surprise- but trying to ambush a target who is expecting it is different. I would assume players would expect a chance to act heroically quickly. The lesson is clear- if you want to ambush, be fast. High dex. and improved initiative will get you acting first frequently. A golem? I’m not much of a hero if that can ambush me without fail when I strongly suspect it of being behind a door. No, I can’t ready an action (!), but I should get a crack at initiative.

 

[Thanee]

No surprise IMHO. The party was prepared for those opponents.

Just roll initiative as soon as the door opens and see who reacts the fastest.

Bye
Thanee

 

[moritheil]

The lesson is clear- if you want to ambush, be fast. High dex. and improved initiative will get you acting first frequently. A golem? I’m not much of a hero if that can ambush me without fail when I strongly suspect it of being behind a door. No, I can’t ready an action (!), but I should get a crack at initiative.

I, too, think that rolling initiative would be fair, but that it would depend on the situation. If the party got ready and said, "remember, there's an iron golem or two in that room," fine. If the party got ambushed and then someone remembered that they were there last week, and then tried to argue their way out of the surprise by saying their character would remember it even if they didn't, I'd be a little less inclined to grant that, not least because it would probably mean doing a few minutes' worth of game time (and half an hour of RL time) over. I would most likely take an Int check, or say that it seems to me that the character remembered it just as it was too late.

 

[William_2]

Er...hang on. The Spectre can tell exactly where they are and instructs the Golem on what to do? Then the actual encounter has started- but if there is a surprise round, the bad guys use it up by staying in place and doing nothing. You don’t pick when surprise is- it is at the beginning of the encounter. The Spectre could, for example, leave, or attack- but it chooses to lay in wait. The surprise round is gone, by definition, before any of the characters act. In that case, I would roll initiative right then, myself (as DM). If the Golem wins, it can ready that attack. If the character opening the door wins, they act faster than the Golem is able, and complete their action.
So, same result for me, but different thinking. I Can’t even agree with myself.

 

[Space Coyote]

In a case like this, with both parties prepared and very cautious, I never consider the possibility of surprise.

No surprise IMHO. The party was prepared for those opponents.

Hmmmmm, well, my reasoning is that the party did not *know* that the enemies were there. They were going on 5 week old knowledge and *assuming* such. It just so happens that they were correct.

With the reasoning of the previous posters, players can just "assume" that there are enemies behind every door and "prepare" for a fight, negating ambushes 100% of the time. A player can just say, "I assume that there will be enemies behind this door and prepare for a fight." prior to opening any door. ??????

 

[moritheil]

With the reasoning of the previous posters, players can just "assume" that there are enemies behind every door and "prepare" for a fight, negating ambushes 100% of the time. A player can just say, "I assume that there will be enemies behind this door and prepare for a fight." prior to opening any door. ??????

Haha, my players did that in this weekend's session. Nothing was on the other side of the door they were watching, but a bunch of enemies did show up from the OTHER door, behind them.

 

[werk]

Er...hang on. The Spectre can tell exactly where they are and instructs the Golem on what to do?

Yeah, I think the spectre gets surprise, as would the golems if the spectre tips them to the party's presence.

My analogy: the mousetrap. You see a mousetrap, you understand how it works and where all the important parts are. Irregardless of that fact, if you trip the trigger...snap! surprise.

So what if the party knows where the baddies are in the room? They can not see them or see what they are doing or are ready to do until that door is open. The bads are waiting (3 rounds min?) for the party to open the door so they can snap their trap.

 

[Pielorinho]

With the reasoning of the previous posters, players can just "assume" that there are enemies behind every door and "prepare" for a fight, negating ambushes 100% of the time. A player can just say, "I assume that there will be enemies behind this door and prepare for a fight." prior to opening any door. ??????

Actually, yes: if you go into a room prepped to fight, you can't be ambushed when there are enemies in that room who are looking for a fight.

That doesn't negate 100% of ambushes. There are ambushes that happen:
-On the way to the dungeon.
-When the PCs are resting.
-When the PCs turn the corner to go down the corridor.
-When the PCs go back into a room that they'd already cleared.
-When the PCs are parleying.

There are all kinds of ambush opportunities. It's reasonable for PCs not to be ambushed when they're going into a situation with a high probability of a fight, I think.

That said, if it bothers you to give up this type of ambush, then you can say that, after a few times of doing this, the PCs have started to let their guards down, and it won't work anymore. You judge them to not really believe enemies are behind the door, given their recent experiences.

Daniel