Swashranger

[Charwoman Gene]

Is it just me or can you almost create a swashbuckler with a ranger? There are a great series of melee mobility powers that run almost the whole way up without requiring two-weapons. The main advantage of the "two-weapon" tyle is the bonus feat of toughness.

 

[bobthehappyzombie]

just have a dagger in the off hand and you're still pretty swash, then you can have whatever powers you wish.

 

[Gort]

Or a buckler.

 

[Starfox]

The problem here is the big affair they make of two-weapon fighting with any two one-handed weapons. Basically, if you go Rapier/Dagger, you are paying a feat for the rapier and getting worse damage out of the dagger compared to twin longswords.

This is another example of built-in concept limitations in the classes. Rangers are green-capped chaps with a bow or two really big pokers. Play them as anything else, and you pay for it.

 

[Bialaska]

My own version of the Swashbuckler is a Rogue. Yes, you need Weapon Proficiency, but Rapier is a weapon that has +3 proficiency bonus, deals 1d8 damage and is a light blade, which means all of the Rogue's exploits can be used. The Rogue has precise strikes, flourish and other such attacks which I think fits with the Swashbuckler.

 

[Njall]

The problem here is the big affair they make of two-weapon fighting with any two one-handed weapons. Basically, if you go Rapier/Dagger, you are paying a feat for the rapier and getting worse damage out of the dagger compared to twin longswords.

This is another example of built-in concept limitations in the classes. Rangers are green-capped chaps with a bow or two really big pokers. Play them as anything else, and you pay for it.

Frankly, even in previous editions, there were builds that worked and builds that were not that good, so I don't see how this is a problem unless you're trying to squeeze every last ounce of damage out of your character.
The TWF ranger's strength, actually, is that most of his damage at higher levels comes from static modifiers as opposed to weapon damage.
When you're making multiple attacks/round, [w] is not that relevant, what comes attached is.
Take "Cruel Cage of Steel", ranger 19 attack.
At 19, a ranger can conceivably have 20 in strength, has weapon focus and probably a +4 weapon. That's a + 11 damage right there.
The power allows him to attack three times, dealing [2w](main hand), [2w](off-hand] and [w](main hand).
So, assuming he's using a rapier and a dagger instead of 2 bastard swords, his average damage is 19.5+33(+9, hunter's quarry) instead of 27.5+33 (+9).
In both cases, the majority of his damage doesn't come from [W].
Sure, he's losing about 8 damage this way...however, he's using two light blades: this means he can easily multiclass as a rogue or a fighter (rain of blows, for example, is a great power to use with a light blade, and it is useful both at low levels and at higher levels. A ranger/pitfighter, for example, would make great use of those 3 attacks).
You can still think out of the box and create different, interesting characters even in 4e, it just takes awhile to get used to the rules system

However, I've always seen the swashbuckler as more agile than strong, and melee rangers need strength to be effective; so, if I were to play one, I'd probably play a trickster rogue that focuses on charisma and dexterity, using a rapier.
Seems swashbuckling enough to me...

 

[Feldspar]

I've only had the PHB for a short while, but Njall's post references a couple of things I most wanted to get a better grip on.

... most of his damage at higher levels comes from static modifiers ...

Njall's was referencing Ranger Encounter/Daily powers, but is that statement also true of at will powers? Unless I'm missing something, the only difference between the damage done by an at will power used by level 1 character and the same power used at level 20 is from having bumped their stats and from enhancements on the weapon/implement. Just how big should we expect the difference in static modifiers to be between level 1 and 20? (I'm referencing 20 since at 21 you get the 2w effect kicking in).

Seems odd for a character that much higher level doing maybe not that much more damage ... I suppose that partly explains the minion 1 hp mechanic ... Encounter powers don't seem to scale much more aggressively in terms of damage. And if you have more encounter powers available as well at higher levels it seems like their importance, compared to at wills, grows in an almost exponential way ... <shrug>

However, I've always seen the swashbuckler as more agile than strong, and melee rangers need strength to be effective; so, if I were to play one, I'd probably play a trickster rogue that focuses on charisma and dexterity, using a rapier. Seems swashbuckling enough to me...

So, barring any kind of multiclassing, or some encounter/daily power I've missed, that swashbuckilng Rogue's Main Gauche is just for show ... unless of course he took the Two Weapon Defense and/or Two Weapon Fighting feats (which he'd benefit from even if he never attacks with that OH). Or, he could choose to attack with his offhand instead of his main hand in a given round if he wanted to take advantage of some property of that weapon.

 

[CCamfield]

Lots of swashbucklers in films have used just one sword, or a sword and a cape in some situations, or even two rapiers. I don't think twin rapiers would be a bad route to take with a ranger (unless I'm missing something) and would be pretty stylish.

Rogue with the main gauche to enable Two Weapon Defense seems pretty good too.

 

[Njall]

I've only had the PHB for a short while, but Njall's post references a couple of things I most wanted to get a better grip on.Njall's was referencing Ranger Encounter/Daily powers, but is that statement also true of at will powers? Unless I'm missing something, the only difference between the damage done by an at will power used by level 1 character and the same power used at level 20 is from having bumped their stats and from enhancements on the weapon/implement. Just how big should we expect the difference in static modifiers to be between level 1 and 20? (I'm referencing 20 since at 21 you get the 2w effect kicking in).

The only at will powers that could scale well are, I think, Twin Strike and Riposte Strike.
However, twin strike's problem is that it doesn't add Str to the damage roll, thus you'll have to find some other damage modifiers ( Pit Fighter PP, Kensai PP, Weapon Focus, Master of the Hunt, and so on ).
As for Riposte Strike, you need two high stats to take the best of it, and it uses your immediate action for the round, so it's not as good as it could be. Encounter Powers are just better in this regard, and the ranger has a ton of encounter powers that give multiple attacks.

However, for example, at 22th level, a rogue/kensei with 22 str and dex deals 4d8+36 with his rapier when he uses his Riposte Strike, if both attacks hit. That's an average 54 damage with an At-Will...not that bad. If he uses power attack, his deals 10% less damage on average, unless someone's debuffed the opponent's AC. If he hits on a 2+ anyway, and the enemy attacks him, he deals 64 damage on average with a single at will power.
Compare that number to what a fighter/kensei(demigod) would be doing with reaping strike and a +5 Bastard Sword:
2d10+7(strength)+5(enhancement)+3(weapon focus)+4(kensei PP) +1(versatile weapon)=2d10+21, 31 damage on average, 40 with Power Attack.
At lower levels, [W] damage carries far more weight; at higher levels, it doesn't matter that much if you can attack multiple times.

Seems odd for a character that much higher level doing maybe not that much more damage ... I suppose that partly explains the minion 1 hp mechanic ... Encounter powers don't seem to scale much more aggressively in terms of damage. And if you have more encounter powers available as well at higher levels it seems like their importance, compared to at wills, grows in an almost exponential way ... <shrug>

Well, our rogue dealt 2d8+8 at first level, 17 damage on average...so he tripled his damage output. Sure, it's not that much, but not that bad either

So, barring any kind of multiclassing, or some encounter/daily power I've missed, that swashbuckilng Rogue's Main Gauche is just for show ... unless of course he took the Two Weapon Defense and/or Two Weapon Fighting feats (which he'd benefit from even if he never attacks with that OH). Or, he could choose to attack with his offhand instead of his main hand in a given round if he wanted to take advantage of some property of that weapon.

Yes...or he could use his dagger for the occasional ranged attack
+1 damage and AC is nothing to scoff at, anyway...

 

[Plane Sailing]

The problem here is the big affair they make of two-weapon fighting with any two one-handed weapons. Basically, if you go Rapier/Dagger, you are paying a feat for the rapier and getting worse damage out of the dagger compared to twin longswords.

This is another example of built-in concept limitations in the classes. Rangers are green-capped chaps with a bow or two really big pokers. Play them as anything else, and you pay for it.

This isn't a concept limitation at all!

It is only a limitation if someone is determined to be able to do the maximum amount of damage at all times and in all circumstances.

Frankly, most of the people I know go for style rather than maximising damage; and as long as their option doesn't suck (which rapier and dagger doesn't), they are fine with it. Me too.

Cheers