Swoardmage versus Battlerager vigor fighter

[DM-Rocco]

I am making a new 2nd level character I have it narrowed down to a human swordmage:
Str: 13
Con:13
Dex: 10
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 08

with the Arcane Unitiate, Armor Pro Hide and Defensive Mobility feats

or

a dwarven fighter with the battlerager vigor
Str: 17
Con:18
Dex: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 08

With the Dwarf Stoneblood and Dwarven Weapon training feats.

I like the idea of the high AC multiclass wizard swordmage but I think, from what I can tell and feel free to correct me, that the swordmage doesn't do a lot of mid to high level damage and they don't have things like dwarven weapon traning so aside from things like power attack, it appears you will only do weapon damage + Int modifier.

The dwarf battlerager feature seems nice, plus with all the new powers to increase damage by adding in your Con, dwarven weapon training and a few other things you can gain a healthy damage bonus plus you are gaininng hit points with each hit.

So, tell me what you think and any experience you have with either class.

Er, Please

 

[Cadfan]

They're both viable.

The swordmage has more fancy tricks in his arsenal. The battlerager is more "meat and potatoes." That is, he basically hits stuff and gets hit by stuff.

 

[DM-Rocco]

They're both viable.

The swordmage has more fancy tricks in his arsenal. The battlerager is more "meat and potatoes." That is, he basically hits stuff and gets hit by stuff.

I do like tricks, but with the swordmage I feel like I have to multiclass into wizard to a get a few extra tricks out of it.

I did hear from a few sources that the battlerager kind of poops out at mid to higher levels, but I don't see it.

I am leaning towards the swordmage just because of the fun tricks and for something different. I just think, off of the top of my head, that they really don't have much going for them at paragon levels or higher and was looking for feedback from those that may have played them.

 

[Cryptos]

If you're looking for a few tricks, just take the Ritual Caster feat, honestly. In combat you'll primarily be focusing on your Swordmage powers. And the in-combat features of a wizard aren't very trick-like, anyway. Does it matter that you make elemental attacks with a sword all the time vs. making elemental attacks with a wand sometimes? Swordmage is no more or less "trick" oriented than Wizard, if you ask me. It's all the little things like cantrips and rituals that allow wizards to still perform tricks. And since you can't get the cantrips....

You're already trained in Arcana as a Swordmage, might as well make the most of it.

 

[DM-Rocco]

If you're looking for a few tricks, just take the Ritual Caster feat, honestly. In combat you'll primarily be focusing on your Swordmage powers. And the in-combat features of a wizard aren't very trick-like, anyway. Does it matter that you make elemental attacks with a sword all the time vs. making elemental attacks with a wand sometimes? Swordmage is no more or less "trick" oriented than Wizard, if you ask me. It's all the little things like cantrips and rituals that allow wizards to still perform tricks. And since you can't get the cantrips....

You're already trained in Arcana as a Swordmage, might as well make the most of it.

Well, my thought was, the swordmage and the Wizard use the same base stat. Being in the thick of things and having a few spells to help out in that situation like the shield utility or fire shroud could make the swordmage a bit more interesting especially when the sword mage powers start to peter out.

Plus, the party has a dedicated wizard who can cast rituals, no need to waste a feat for myself

 

[Cadfan]

Take a look at some of the swordmage's paragon and epic tier powers.

Like Seed of Fire- you light someone on fire, knock them backwards a few steps, and everyone nearby when they get there is scorched.

Or Dimensional Slash- hit someone, teleport yourself and them a short ways.

You also get not only close burst 1 attacks, which the fighter gets, but attacks with larger close bursts, and even some blasts.

That being said, if you want to multiclass to wizard, go for it. The synergy is strong, and it will add ranged attacks to your arsenal.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

If the party already has a wizard, I'd choose the battlerager fighter instead of the swordmage. The swordmage is a defender with a lot of controller thrown in, and you've already got a specialist controller. Unless your DM likes minions, I mean, really likes them a lot, I think you'll be overkilling any that appear: either you'll feel useless or the wizard will. The fighter seems like a much better actual defender to me.

Just from an optimization POV of course. And I've never seen the Swordmage in actual play.

 

[EvilGM]

The other members of the party:

Dwarf Fighter 3 (2h axe)
Eladrin Wizard 3 (control-heavy)
Halfling Rogue 3 (artful dodger)
Elf Ranger 2 (archer)
Eladrin Warlord 2 (tactical, focus on healing)
Human Cleric 1 (sample cleric from builder)

 

[fba827]

I just started playing a swordmage and one of my other options that I considered at the same time was a battlerager, so I had this same conversation with myself a couple weeks ago. Ultimately, I did choose the swordmage for a few reasons, but I'll try and keep this focused on your specific comments...

The swordmage has a high AC (since your primary attack, damage, and AC will be based off Int, it's hard not to have a good AC from this - just keep pumping up your Int!). If you have a small group of PCs this will be important since you will be standing toe-to-toe with the bad guys and they will be more likley to want to hit you.

Multiclassing to a wizard may be a bit unnecessary if you already have a dedicated group's wizard. Mainly because there aren't that many wizard powers, you'll overlap a lot. But if you do (not saying you can't, just you might overla a lot) then go for more the close burst/blast type powers seeing how, as a defender role, you'll be in the middle of things a lot.

An option to consider (if you did want to multiclass): instead of multiclassing to wizard, consider multiclassing to spellplagued (if your DM allows it, it's in the same book as swordmage). Sure, it adds some penalties and also background to your character (how he got the spellscar), but it will also add some variety in the powers so you don't overlap the wizard and you can still choose powers that key off of your Int, though the spellsplague abilities are less utility and more damaging than swordmages.

On the damage end of things, you're only going to do low to medium amounts of damage, combined with nifty little tricks (such as doing an extra point of damage to all enemies adjacent and such -- which actually is good for taking out little minions swarming around you but not good at widdling down the BBEG)


As for the dwarven battlerager -- your AC won't be as high as the swordmage's. But if you have lots of people in the group, it won't matter _as much_ since there will be more targets for your enemies to go after (thereby making you get targetted less).
You will, however, have medium to high damage output, though without the nifty little effects.

Me, personally, I went with the swordmage because we have a small group (so I needed the high AC) plus, I like the nifty effects (like teleporting, or varied damage types - I just get bored saying "I swing my axe and hit for X damage" but that is me being unable to get creative with weapon damage descriptions). And, yes, I will be multiclassing him (eventually) in to being spellplagued.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I just started playing a swordmage and one of my other options that I considered at the same time was a battlerager, so I had this same conversation with myself a couple weeks ago. Ultimately, I did choose the swordmage for a few reasons, but I'll try and keep this focused on your specific comments...

The swordmage has a high AC (since your primary attack, damage, and AC will be based off Int, it's hard not to have a good AC from this - just keep pumping up your Int!). If you have a small group of PCs this will be important since you will be standing toe-to-toe with the bad guys and they will be more likley to want to hit you.

That was my thought as well.

Multiclassing to a wizard may be a bit unnecessary if you already have a dedicated group's wizard. Mainly because there aren't that many wizard powers, you'll overlap a lot. But if you do (not saying you can't, just you might overla a lot) then go for more the close burst/blast type powers seeing how, as a defender role, you'll be in the middle of things a lot.

Yeah, I was thinking wizard fot better utility spells anf close burst effects like fire shroud. It works well, but what regular wizard is going to get in the thick of things to do it?

An option to consider (if you did want to multiclass): instead of multiclassing to wizard, consider multiclassing to spellplagued (if your DM allows it, it's in the same book as swordmage). Sure, it adds some penalties and also background to your character (how he got the spellscar), but it will also add some variety in the powers so you don't overlap the wizard and you can still choose powers that key off of your Int, though the spellsplague abilities are less utility and more damaging than swordmages.

Hmm, interesting.

On the damage end of things, you're only going to do low to medium amounts of damage, combined with nifty little tricks (such as doing an extra point of damage to all enemies adjacent and such -- which actually is good for taking out little minions swarming around you but not good at widdling down the BBEG)

Yeah, that is the big draw back for me right now with the swordmage.

As for the dwarven battlerager -- your AC won't be as high as the swordmage's. But if you have lots of people in the group, it won't matter _as much_ since there will be more targets for your enemies to go after (thereby making you get targetted less).
You will, however, have medium to high damage output, though without the nifty little effects.

I figured with a shield we can get close to the sword mage if he is in plate armor.

I figure with dwarven weapon training and dwarf stoneblood and taking powers that feed off of the hammer he will be a high out put damage but only really good against one foe at a time.

Me, personally, I went with the swordmage because we have a small group (so I needed the high AC) plus, I like the nifty effects (like teleporting, or varied damage types - I just get bored saying "I swing my axe and hit for X damage" but that is me being unable to get creative with weapon damage descriptions). And, yes, I will be multiclassing him (eventually) in to being spellplagued.

That is the problem I see with the fighter too. Sure he will be mostly unstoppable damage dealing fool, but I think he will get boring.