Swordmage too weak?

[Seelenquell]

The fighter's mark is overridden by the swordmage's mark and vice versa. The fighter can choose not to mark, when keeping the swordmage's mark is more benefitial. Just as a fighter has powers that make a perma-mark, so does the swordmage, for example Shielding Fire from Dragon 367 comes to mind.

 

[urzafrank]

Sorry, I should've been more specific. Yes, it's for an entire encounter, but it CAN'T be overridden at all. As opposed to the Swordmage where his will drop off when a Fighter accidentally marks the guy or something. Additionally, the Fighter can mark the BBEG with Lasting Threat and still feel free to mark any other enemies any time he wishes, whereas the Swordmage can only maintain one Aegis at a time IIRC.

So in comparing swordmage to the fighter you use one of the fighters daily powers from the Martial Power book and not the features of each class? That does not seem helpful

 

[Doctor Proctor]

So in comparing swordmage to the fighter you use one of the fighters daily powers from the Martial Power book and not the features of each class? That does not seem helpful

Wow dude...did you even read what I wrote?

"They can mark anyone at any time, rather than only doing so through powers, and they can mark for an entire encounter or mark whole groups simultaneously."

And the bit about marking for the whole encounter is related to a daily. Marking as many people as they attack, any time, is part of their class features. The Swordmage, unless I read it wrong, marks like the Paladin...meaning he only marks when powers allow him to do so.

Additionally, class features don't exist in a vacuum. They often work alongside of, or are incorporated into, the power selection for that class. If you want to play a Defender capable of elemental damage, but didn't look at the power selections, how would you ever know that this is exactly what the Swordmage does?

 

[Bolongo]

"They can mark anyone at any time, rather than only doing so through powers, and they can mark for an entire encounter or mark whole groups simultaneously."

And the bit about marking for the whole encounter is related to a daily. Marking as many people as they attack, any time, is part of their class features. The Swordmage, unless I read it wrong, marks like the Paladin...meaning he only marks when powers allow him to do so.

Your reasoning is still a little twisted. Let's straighten a few things out.

An advantage of the Fighter's Combat Challenge is that it doesn't take an action. Aegis is a minor action. Usually spending this is not an issue, there's not a whole lot of other interesting actions vying for the minor slot.

The "when powers allow him to do so" is a non sequitur if I ever saw one. Yeah, a Swordmage can only mark someone who's within 2 squares, and only if he has a minor action available. Well, duh. A Fighter can only mark someone he's attacked. Otherwise he's not allowed to do so.

As for "any time"... well, any time he makes an attack, sure, but not any time he feels like it. This might actually be more limited then Aegis in some cases: if a Fighter has used his standard action for the round on something other than an attack, then no marking for him.

And "as many people as they attack" is only true if you mean as many enemies as they make an attack roll against during a turn. Multiple marking is dependent on using powers that have multiple targets. In other words, encounter or daily powers. So keeping a bunch of people marked indefinitely is not a basic class feature.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Our group's assault swordmage is arguably the strongest person in the party, being a good defender and doing a large amount of damage. It helps that he has a fullblade . But his aegis is activated quite often, and it's a huge help - he can mark the boss, go and clear out a few of the boss's minions, and teleport back to attack the boss if the boss hits other PCs. And when he teleports, he can choose to teleport into flanking position, which helps my rogue .

The swordmage also has a number of attacks that can target different defenses and exploit various vulnerabilities, a feature that has come in handy a few times. He also has an insane AC and Ref, two of the most commonly attacked defenses in the game.

So, I don't buy that the swordmage is weak. Like a great weapon fighter, he might not be the best shutdown defender, but he does his job quite well.

 

[SteveC]

As someone who's playing a Swordmage in a paragon campaign, I think they're fine and nothing anyone has to worry about. My GM just confessed that my character is the one he feels he has to deal with the most in order to defeat the party. In my case I took Wandering Swordmage which improved the range on my mark to add my Wis modifier (so it's 4 squares for me) and then I selected the Double Aegis Paragon Feat, so I mark two targets.

I start the battle by marking two opponents who are engaged with our fighter and being attacked by the rogue and then use one of my teleports to go to an entirely different part of the battle and attack a completely different monster. The result of this is the monsters I've marked have considerable trouble coming over to attack me, and I get to use my shielding feature every round. If they back off and come over to attack me, well I'm still doing my defender job at that point.

I use a jagged fullblade, and combined with the iron armbands and weapon focus, my damage output is decent, definitely mid-tier, but that's because our rogue is positively insane with his attacks.

So I guess I'll say that I haven't found the Swordmage to be ineffective at all, and I didn't even take what many consider the best path for it (Coronial Guard).

--Steve

 

[Bolongo]

2 people in a row using Fullblades? I'm curious as to why.

Compared to spending that proficiency feat on bastard sword and wielding it 1H, you're gaining +1 damage at the price of -2 AC.

Heck, if your DM lets you get away with the hand-switching versatile trick, the damage would be equal...

 

[Caliban]

2 people in a row using Fullblades? I'm curious as to why.

Compared to spending that proficiency feat on bastard sword and wielding it 1H, you're gaining +1 damage at the price of -2 AC.

Heck, if your DM lets you get away with the hand-switching versatile trick, the damage would be equal...

Probably the high crit property. Combined with the "jagged" property (crit on a 19-20 if I remember right), that's an extra 1d12 damage on crits, and crits happen more often.

 

[Bolongo]

Probably the high crit property. Combined with the "jagged" property (crit on a 19-20 if I remember right), that's an extra 1d12 damage on crits, and crits happen more often.

High crit for a d12 weapon gives +0.325 damage at heroic tier. +0.65 with a Jagged weapon. At epic tier, with the jagged sword or the mastery feat, it's up at nearly 2 whole points. Big whoop.

I suppose that for players who go this route it's more about the thrill of the occasional big crit than it is about crunching the numbers.

Call me a minimaxer, but I'd rather take the AC any day.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Your reasoning is still a little twisted. Let's straighten a few things out.

An advantage of the Fighter's Combat Challenge is that it doesn't take an action. Aegis is a minor action. Usually spending this is not an issue, there's not a whole lot of other interesting actions vying for the minor slot.

The "when powers allow him to do so" is a non sequitur if I ever saw one. Yeah, a Swordmage can only mark someone who's within 2 squares, and only if he has a minor action available. Well, duh. A Fighter can only mark someone he's attacked. Otherwise he's not allowed to do so.

As for "any time"... well, any time he makes an attack, sure, but not any time he feels like it. This might actually be more limited then Aegis in some cases: if a Fighter has used his standard action for the round on something other than an attack, then no marking for him.

And "as many people as they attack" is only true if you mean as many enemies as they make an attack roll against during a turn. Multiple marking is dependent on using powers that have multiple targets. In other words, encounter or daily powers. So keeping a bunch of people marked indefinitely is not a basic class feature.

I play a Dragonborn Fighter, and one of the reasons why is for Dragonbreath. As a Fighter, I can use Dragonbreath to mark anyone in a Close Blast 5 at the beginning of a fight. I will also be taking Sweeping Blow and later Come and Get It. Why? Because they're muti-target powers that allow me to mark anyone I attack.

The difference between that and a Swordmage or Paladin, that you seem to not understand, is that they can't do the same thing. A Dragonborn Pally or Swordmage doesn't mark everyone in the CB5, just the one guy they use their power on. Additionally, if they MC Fighter and pick up the powers I mentioned? They still can't multi-mark with them because it's not specifically listed as something that the power does...that's because it's the Fighter's class feature that allows him to mark anyone that he attacks, with no restrictions on the power being required to state that it creates a mark.

In other words...if you want to mark enemies, you should be a Fighter because EVERYTHING YOU ATTACK CAN BE MARKED. With Pally's and Swordmages, you can only mark if something specifically tells you that you can, which IMO means that they're not as good for the job of sole Defender for a party.

If you want though, we could get into a treatise about the effectiveness of Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority versus Aegis and Divine Challenge...