Swordmage Warding vs. Armor of Faith

[cignus_pfaccari]

Seems reasonable. +3 AC (eventually) is a lot for a feat and it should come with some drawback. Otherwise, the Avenger can eventually get AC that's too high by taking Armor of Faith and Armor Proficiency feats. With this change, high level Avengers will tend to wear Cloth, unlike the other cloth-starting classes, who all have incentives to switch to Leather Armor because +2 AC is a major benefit for a single feat.

Remember, the swordmage can buy Hide proficiency too, as they're likely to have the Str and Con required, which the avenger is less likely to have. So, for the cost of one feat, the swordmage has a +1 or +2 AC bonus over the avenger (they're likely to have higher Int than the avenger has Int or Dex).

Plus, again, as has been previously stated, the avenger is out running around dragging one enemy off by itself and beating it up (slowly, because it doesn't do big huge damage spikes). It's practically a secondary defender.

Brad

 

[Obryn]

I think it's an error to take a single element of a class and compare it against a single element of another class, regardless of role.

Swordmages have more stuff than just their Warding. Avengers have more stuff than just their Armor of Faith. Yes, Armor of Faith is better - but the question isn't whether or not a single class feature in one class is better than it is in another class. The question is, taken as a whole, does this feature help this class fulfill its roll? And is this class fairly balanced with other classes, taken as a whole?

-O

 

[Garthanos]

I can't see any reason why you would, without granting some other bonus..

Not sure that I wouldn't give other bonus's from a pure AC point of view the class it is being adjusted for would probably also have INT/DEX as its primary
right there is 2 points better, without a feat to purchase it...

And something nice to spend those feats on if they want to be defendery?
they would then have 2 more feats they could spend on being tougher and have more healing surges! I just made it likely they wouldnt use armor to do it.

or they could spend those two feats on being more strikery boosting there damage in some fashion.

 

[Elric]

Remember, the swordmage can buy Hide proficiency too, as they're likely to have the Str and Con required, which the avenger is less likely to have. So, for the cost of one feat, the swordmage has a +1 or +2 AC bonus over the avenger (they're likely to have higher Int than the avenger has Int or Dex).

Plus, again, as has been previously stated, the avenger is out running around dragging one enemy off by itself and beating it up (slowly, because it doesn't do big huge damage spikes). It's practically a secondary defender.

Brad

Sorry, I meant the Improved Armor of Faith feat that adds up to +3 AC at epic tier, not Armor of Faith itself. I agree Armor of Faith shouldn't be limited to Cloth Armor. I misread the original post.

 

[FrozenChrono]

Unless you count the hp and surges from high Con for a shielding swordmage, swordmages have 1 hp more and 1 healing surge more; in addition to their defender-like AC, avengers get defender-like hp.

Good point, I forgot that Avengers didn't get the rogue hp progression.

While noting the starting hp from class, SM's will almost always have a higher Con than Avengers. So while the hp difference won't be great I'd expect at least 2-3 more surges on average to help them out. That's a big deal as a defender. Heck even just the 1 surge they normally get is a big deal.

Once again, abilities are a big factor in their difference. Just look at the "fighter is the best pure defender debate" then look through a paladins utility power list. Try to find better defending powers anywhere. Class features aren't everything.

Also the SM feat gives a +1/+2 bonus to all defenses. Not just AC. I'd trade 1 AC for +2 to my NAD's just about any time.

If you do want to change the avenger armor of faith feat, maybe limiting it to cloth armor would have the desired effect? All of a sudden none of them are running around in leather, at least by epic.

 

[DracoSuave]

The irony of this entire thread is that Swordmages also have a feat at Paragon that boosts their Warding, so they too can get +3 at epic on top of their +3. Then they can use a shield, which opens Shield Specialization for +4, and ends up with +3 to Reflex. An Avenger can't do this.

 

[Elric]

The irony of this entire thread is that Swordmages also have a feat at Paragon that boosts their Warding, so they too can get +3 at epic on top of their +3. Then they can use a shield, which opens Shield Specialization for +4, and ends up with +3 to Reflex. An Avenger can't do this.

It would cost 3 feats to pick up Light Shield Proficiency, Heavy Shield Proficiency, and Shield Specialization. That gives +1 AC and +3 Reflex. With the number of powerful feats currently available, that's not a great return on investment unless you've taken many other defense-boosting feats already and are just trying to max defenses.

I can't comment on the swordmage feat you're referring to, since I don't know the details.

 

[DracoSuave]

It gives +1 at paragon, +2 at Epic, (from Arcane Power). My bad on there being a heroic one, but still, Int being primary for SMs and secondary for Avengers, means that it's more likely to be higher, which results in similiar AC.

As for the shield thing, that's more me musing about a spiked-shield Swordmage build I have kicking around in my brain, sort of a Captain America build.

 

[LittleFuzzy]

It gives +1 at paragon, +2 at Epic, (from Arcane Power)

I'm looking at Arcane Power right now, and I'm not seeing it. I see a Paragon feat that's already been mentioned that gives +1 feat bonus to all defenses at Paragon, but that's it.

 

[Mentat55]

I'm looking at Arcane Power right now, and I'm not seeing it. I see a Paragon feat that's already been mentioned that gives +1 feat bonus to all defenses at Paragon, but that's it.

The Greater Swordmage Warding feat grants you a +1 bonus, which increases to +2 at 21st level. So it is not a separate feat, but one that scales.