Swordsage with a little bit of Scout

[Storme]

Okay...I just created a character for a high level campaign and I looked at the numbers and was kinda shocked. The results were quite accidental, so I wanted to run this by you geniuses to get your input.

Is it clever, or crazy?

Level 1 Scout (1d6 skirmish, trapfinding)
Level 10 swordsage (manuevers and stances, some uncanny dodge, etc).
Level 5 Assassin (evasion, and just to meet the image...Death Attack in 3.5 is utterly useless).

Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundral):
Spot the Weak Point: Standard action DC=target AC, next attack is touch attack
Acrobatic Backstab: Tumble check thru enemy space renders it flat-footed next attack
Timely Misdirection: Successful feint allows you to avoid attacks of opportunity.

Feats of note (Human with two flaws allowable by DM):
Murky Eyed[flaw]: roll vs concealment x2, take lower roll
Shaky[flaw]: –2 ranged attack
Martial Stance: +1 Martial Stance
Robilar’s Gambit (PH2 73): Foe gets +4 hit/damage but attacks provoke AoO
Acrobatic Strike: +4 on next AoO tumbled past.
Power Critical (katana) (CS): +4 to confirm Critical Hit
Improved Critical: Double Threat Range
Combat Reflexes: 6 attacks of opportunity per round
Cunning Evasion: May 5’ step and attempt to hide on save
Adaptive Style: Change readied maneuvers as a full round action
Improved Skirmish (CS): Move 20’ for +2d6 skirmish & +2 AC
Desert Fire: +1d6 to Desert Wind strike if move 10’

Gear:
+6 Gauntlets of Dexterity (making dex 26, +8 modifier)/ADDED (per Magic Item Compendium Rules) Shadow Hand Gloves (adds Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike manuever: +15d6, roll for freeze spread)
+6 Belt of Giant Strength (making str 24, +7 modifier)
+1 flaming sword with flaming surge and sudden stun (+1d6, or +4d6 2/day), and a chance to stun each attack.
Bracers of Armor Class +8.
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +4
Boots of Striding and Springing: +10 move, +5 jump.


Okay...it was fun writing it up...thinking about his personality and image. The DM approved the feats, skill tricks, classes and items..then I ran the numbers!

AC 38, or 40 if he moves 20 feet in a round (improved skirmish)

If he attacks from Hide and Move Silently and moves at least 20 feet (his max movement sneaking), and has Assassins Strike maneuver, and uses Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, he does the following damage.

1d10 +8 katana
+1d6 flaming
+3d6 flaming surge
+1d6 skirmish
+2d6 improved skirmish
+3d6 sneak attack
+2d6 sneak attack from Assassins Strike
+15d6 5-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervating strike (then rolls a d20 to determine creeping ice effect)
Total: 37d6 +1d 10 +8 first strike!!!!!

In subsequent rounds he can either keep moving (he has a total tumble skill of 24 and Timely Misdirection skill trick...no problem), he can continue using the skirmish and improved skirmish damage (+3d6), and he has Acrobatic Backstab, as well as Island of Blades maneuver if he wants (which automatically makes you and an adjacent ally flanking one or more targets), he will get his +5d6 sneak attack damage, and he has several other strike maneuvers that do 4d6 (from Stone Dragon and Desert Wind), and one from Shadow Hand that does 6d6.

This means 16 to 18d6 per round of attacks. Let alone mauling some poor sap if I get attacks of opportunity, or (GOD FORBID), I use Robilar’s Gambit (PH2 73) and tear a badguy with multiple attacks to tiny little bits!

This damage output is amazing! I'm wondering if the DM is going to pop a blood vessel when he sees this! I stumbled upon this particularly nasty combination of features and equipment, and am wondering if I'm Mr. Bad Player now?

Do you think this is all kosher, or should I make serious changes before running it by the DM? Game is on Thursday (tomorrow).


Storme

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I know the mass about of die can make any player giggle with glee, but that's only 143 damage on average for your first attack (should you fight something that is a) is vulnerable to sneak attack, b) is vulnerable to fire, and c) you can hide from.)

a, b, and c are definately not guaranteed when facing CR 20 challenges.

All in all it's a well thought out design, but I wouldn't be worried about breaking the game.

 

[Storme]

Thanks, Griff. That puts my mind at ease. Higher level stuff can be quite complicated.


Storme

 

[castro3nw]

I'd love to see your feat and maneuver/stance choices level by level... Trying to wrap my head around the when/how of some of your choices. More opinions/thoughts to come later.

thanks

Ok, here's some more opinions. I'm really amused by the build. It looks fun, and I doubt it'd be terribly overpowered at that level. Ruleswise though, I can't really give it kosher at all... a) The feats are really messy. and b) It's not food. *grins* Anyway... On to further opinions.

Level 1 Scout (1d6 skirmish, trapfinding)
Level 10 swordsage (manuevers and stances, some uncanny dodge, etc).
Level 5 Assassin (evasion, and just to meet the image...Death Attack in 3.5 is utterly useless).

I'm going to assume that you took Swordsage at your first level, for the purposes of feats.
Beyond that, depending on when you started Assassin and Swordsage levels, you could have any number of different combinations of maneuvers/stances, due to the way initiator level stacks.

Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundral):
Spot the Weak Point: Standard action DC=target AC, next attack is touch attack
Acrobatic Backstab: Tumble check thru enemy space renders it flat-footed next attack
Timely Misdirection: Successful feint allows you to avoid attacks of opportunity.

Going to assume as well that sooner or later, there'll be enough skill points to meet prereq's before these get taken. Spot the Weak Point might be the sticking point though, as spot is only a class skill for Assassin and Scout. It'll work out somewhere though, I'm sure.

Feats of note (Human with two flaws allowable by DM):
Murky Eyed[flaw]: roll vs concealment x2, take lower roll
Shaky[flaw]: –2 ranged attack
Martial Stance: +1 Martial Stance
Robilar’s Gambit (PH2 73): Foe gets +4 hit/damage but attacks provoke AoO
Acrobatic Strike: +4 on next AoO tumbled past.
Power Critical (katana) (CS): +4 to confirm Critical Hit
Improved Critical: Double Threat Range
Combat Reflexes: 6 attacks of opportunity per round
Cunning Evasion: May 5’ step and attempt to hide on save
Adaptive Style: Change readied maneuvers as a full round action
Improved Skirmish (CS): Move 20’ for +2d6 skirmish & +2 AC
Desert Fire: +1d6 to Desert Wind strike if move 10’

Ok. Here's how I see it...
1)0 Combat Reflexes:
1)0 Adaptive Style: swordsage 1+
1)0 Desert Fire: desert wind maneuver
1)0
3)1
6)3 Martial Stance: requires maneuvers
9)6 Acrobatic Strike: tumble 12
12)7 Power Critical (katana) (CS):BAB 4/WF
15)10 Improved Critical: BAB 8
??) Cunning Evasion: evasion hide 9
??) Improved Skirmish (CS): can't meet prereq
??) Robilar’s Gambit (PH2 73): can't meet prereq

What I've done is arranged the feats by the level I'm assuming that you're taking them, what BAB you have at that level, and a little description of other prerequisites.
What I'm seeing is that you don't actually meet alot of prerequisites for feats. Improved Skirmish requires 2d6/+1 AC, which doesn't happen until at least Scout 3. Robilar's Gambit requires BAB 12. You could pick it up at level 18.

I'm really not sure how to fit in Cunning Evasion. It requires Evasion, which you do get at Swordsage 9, but that means you couldn't take it before level 9, and you already have feats that can only be taken at those late levels.

Also, I'm not really sure when you want to take Martial Stance. There are a few different options, depending on what level of stance you want to get. You could take it at level 1 or 3 to get a 1st level stance, or at level 6 to get a 3rd level one.

Gear:
+6 Gauntlets of Dexterity (making dex 26, +8 modifier)/ADDED (per Magic Item Compendium Rules) Shadow Hand Gloves (adds Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike manuever: +15d6, roll for freeze spread)
+6 Belt of Giant Strength (making str 24, +7 modifier)
+1 flaming sword with flaming surge and sudden stun (+1d6, or +4d6 2/day), and a chance to stun each attack.
Bracers of Armor Class +8.
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +4
Boots of Striding and Springing: +10 move, +5 jump.

Gear is mostly ok. You're about 15k over the wealth per level guideline, but it might just be a wealthy campaign for all I know.
The only big thing I'm noticing is that the Shadow Hand Gloves don't quite work the way you'd like them to. You have to be able to meet the prerequisites for the maneuver you're using through them. For FSCIES that includes initiator level 17, as it's a 9th level maneuver. Your initator level is either 12 or 13, depending on how you interpret how to stack it.

AC 38, or 40 if he moves 20 feet in a round (improved skirmish)

10+8dex.+5defl.+4nat.+8armor=35 I'm gonna assume you have a suit of padded armor. It keeps all your dex bonus and is light armor, getting you the Swordsage wis -> AC. Also assuming you have a wisdom of 16 or better?

Anyway, I hope this is all helpful. It lowers your damage output significantly, so you might want to look into ways to get more attacks, or pick some maneuvers with interesting effects in addition to damage.

 

[Storme]

Thanks for the info Castro. I'm SO not a rules guy.

You're right, I will have to drop Improved Skirmish and Robilar’s Gambit (which is good news to me, that Gambit thing kinda made me nervice. I might take it at higher level though).

Dropping Improved Skrimish drops the damage output by 2d6 and the +2 AC thing. Everyone has said the build isn't as powerful as I seem to think it is, but my DM is pretty skiddish with things. We've been playing for 3 months and he has ADDED at least one house rule for my Wizard every single game session. I'm not kidding. He currently has a list of over 20 specific House Rules (11 affecting Simulacrum spell, 2 affecting Commune (I made the mistake of buying a commune casting service at a temple on two occassions).

I figure a high level wizard makes him nervous. I'm afraid that a Scout/Swordsage/Assassin will make him LESS nervous, but nervous none the less.

Thanks for all the OBVIOUS amount of time you took in taking a look at this (just remember, almost always take your first level in rogue or scout for every character you make to open up the skills...hehe).

Again...thanks for all the hard work in your wise input.


Storme

 

[castro3nw]

I know it's probably too late now, but looking back, you might be alot better off with scout5/swordsage10/assassin1 than the scout1/asn5... gives evasion earlier to fit with your feats, and could then get the improved skirmish. It'd also give ya a bonus feat, fast movement and a couple other minor toys.

And I know what you mean on rogue or scout for the skills. They're some of my favorite level1's along with barbarian. Ya have to look out for when you can take feats too though. It's a pain.

 

[Storme]

I know it's probably too late now, but looking back, you might be alot better off with scout5/swordsage10/assassin1 than the scout1/asn5... gives evasion earlier to fit with your feats, and could then get the improved skirmish. It'd also give ya a bonus feat, fast movement and a couple other minor toys.

And I know what you mean on rogue or scout for the skills. They're some of my favorite level1's along with barbarian. Ya have to look out for when you can take feats too though. It's a pain.

Actually, I considered doing JUST exactly that, Castro. But I really wanted this guy to have sneak attack since its more in line with his character persona. The DM has allowed me to "rewrite" my old assassin character into modern rules and concepts. And since 3.5 made assassin an incredibly lame and borderline useless prestige class (OMG!!!! THE LAMENESS), he agreed to let me "multi-class" him. I only have levels in assassin because the character WAS an assassin and...I really want to get to Hide In Plain Sight. I'm pleased with the results and played him briefly last night (I'm replacing him with my wizard because I'm tired of the game coming to a stop every time he casts a spell, requiring the DM to stop the game, read the spell and apply varrying levels of light to heavy House Rules to each spell). Hopefully this won't happen with this new character. The swordsage is as new to him as it is to me so I am a bit nervous.

I'm starting to get what you mean by Feats. 3.5 is quite new to me and this is the first time I've taken a feat that had some form of prerequiste that wasn't class or int score or whatever. I'll keep my eyes open in the future. Heck...why bother...I can just shoot everything by you first! Hehe.

PS: My DM agreed with you, Castro on the PREREQUISITES of the 9th level manuever item. He did allow me to take a 6th level maneuver item though since its close enough (I can use up to level 5, and otherwise meet its requirements), which also saved me 27,000g. I took Rabid Bear Strike, which adds 10d6 damage and +4 to hit but reduces my AC by -4.

 

[Doug McCrae]

1d10 +8 katana
+1d6 flaming
+3d6 flaming surge
+1d6 skirmish
+2d6 improved skirmish
+3d6 sneak attack
+2d6 sneak attack from Assassins Strike
+15d6 5-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervating strike (then rolls a d20 to determine creeping ice effect)
Total: 37d6 +1d 10 +8 first strike!!!!!

27d6, not 37.

 

[castro3nw]

PS: My DM agreed with you, Castro on the PREREQUISITES of the 9th level manuever item. He did allow me to take a 6th level maneuver item though since its close enough (I can use up to level 5, and otherwise meet its requirements), which also saved me 27,000g. I took Rabid Bear Strike, which adds 10d6 damage and +4 to hit but reduces my AC by -4.

*grins* Actually, 6th level is perfectly fine. Depending on how you nice your DM is about calculating initiator level, you might even qualify for 7th. That'd cost the extra 27k though.

Basically, the way it works is that it's 1:1 for your levels of swordsage, and 1:2 for all other classes. So with your 1 level of scout, 10 of swordsage and 5 of assassin, it's either 0(scout)+10(swordsage)+2(asn)=12, which allows 6th level maneuvers... Or its 10(swordsage)+3(all others/2)=13, which allows 7th level maneuvers. Cool, huh?