"Syndrome" Syndrome: or the Fallacy of "Special"

[Ourph]

I can name a few friends of Batman...

OK. Name a few. And remember, we're talking about people who are friends with Batman only. If they know Batman is Bruce Wayne they don't count.

Batman's friends indeed are not everyday joes. Unless you count Robin and Alfred.

Both of whom know that Batman=Bruce Wayne, thus disqualifying them from inclusion in the "friends with Batman only" category.

 

[Ourph]

And yet somehow these athletic superstars somehow manage to get by, have friends, get married, and have lifestyles that are envied by millions. Sounds really like it would be much too tough for anyone to handle. I'm sure if he had it to do all over again, Phelps would have given up swimming as a preteen to avoid all this terrible fame and attention.

Being famous and envied doesn't equate to being happy. Pick up a People magazine next time you're in line at the supermarket if you don't believe me.

I have to ask, are you seriously arguing that Superman goes out on a Friday night to have a few drinks with friends? He doesn't. Clark Kent does that. It's not a coincidence that Superman's home base is called the Fortress of SOLITUDE.

 

[Celebrim]

I do think it's kinda amusing. The message I see in the movie is so blatantly, over-the-top, ham-fistedly obvious, and it kinda boggles my mind to see people coming away with another message.

I partly agree with this. The movie does have several obvious messages, and one is definately what you and most people have picked up on. On the other hand, I think the movie works at a great many levels on a great many themes, and so I'm not surprised that you and someone else see different themes as central.

Syndrome's threat, "When everyone is special, then no one will be.", is one of those things that has several layers of meaning available from the context and depending on how you read 'special'.

The salient facts are:
1) The world of mid-movie is already a world where everyone is special (celebrating 4th grade 'graduation') but no one is allowed to be special (Dash and Violet must not only hide their powers but be ashamed of them. Helen must encourage her children not to excel. Bob is not allowed to help anyone and is continually victimized by people who are themselves pathetic, self-interested, and untalented.). This world is horrible and oppressive for everyone.
2) Syndrome's intention of releasing his inventions is clearly intended to continue this oppression, not to alleviate people from it. Syndrome's words are a threat because he's not threatening to release anyone from oppression but to deepen their general bondage.
3) Syndrome's threat is not fully credible because he's clearly a hypocrit. He is obviously not someone who cares for others and wants to help enable their greatness. He has always used his talents to subjegate others and enable oppressors. He's a weapons merchant that sells to people who use force to demand respect, and force and threats are the currency he deals in.
4) Syndrome is special himself. Sure, he's not special in exactly the way that the heroes are, but as a gadgeteer his potentially a 'great person' capable of helping others and advancing the general well-being of the world. But compare him to the good gadgeteer. Edna shares her technology. Syndrome keeps for himself. Edna empowers others. Syndrome empowers himself. Edna empowers heros. Syndrome empowers oppressive regimes. Edna encourages others. Syndrome uses others. Ednas goal is to make others look good. Syndromes goal is to make others look bad. Edna is motivated by her art - she neither wants nor needs approval. Syndrome is motivated by solely by desire for others approval. Buddy could be a hero. But Buddy lacks the heroic motivation.

But I'm making this sound more Randian than it is. The movie doesn't in fact advance objectivism, but something a good deal more complex and nuanced.

If there is one message you ought to take from the film that is central to what it wants to convey it is, "No capes."

 

[Garthanos]

Both of whom know that Batman=Bruce Wayne, thus disqualifying them from inclusion in the "friends with Batman only" category.

No I would say that is not a given.... It is the opposite category.
Bruce wayne only friends that you have to assert exists.

They can know Bruce Wayne is a secret of batmans without "bruce wayne" being anything significant except in so far as revealing the connection would upset batman.... when they hear about Bruce Wayne being more scoundrel than anything else do they even feel like chiming in and say no he isnt.


That Bruce Wayne identity is not a facet of the whole person like Clark Kent is...

The defintion of "Bruce Wayne" is nebulous... he isnt the drunkard he isnt the guilt ridden chaser of tail or any of the other things of people who only interact with only Bruce Wayne think he is. That life as Bruce is not somebody presenting a facet of himself like superman does.

Actually I said that wrong... those bad features really are bruce wayne ... a very planned and carried out set of deceptions that keep people who would look close at him distant...

 

[Ourph]

No I would say that is not a given.... It is the opposite category.
Bruce wayne only friends that you have to assert exists.

They can know Bruce Wayne is a secret of batmans without "bruce wayne" being anything significant except in so far as revealing the connection would upset batman.... when they hear about Bruce Wayne being more scoundrel than anything else do they even feel like chiming in and say no he isnt.

My assertion is that superheroes don't have friends. You apparently disagree with that. I think I'm perfectly justified in asking you to name people who are friends with Batman in his superhero identity only. If you can't, I don't see how you have any basis for disagreeing with me.

That Bruce Wayne identity is not a facet of the whole person like Clark Kent is...

The defintion of "Bruce Wayne" is nebulous... he isnt the drunkard he isnt the guilt ridden chaser of tail or any of the other things of people who only interact with only Bruce Wayne think he is. That life as Bruce is not somebody presenting a facet of himself like superman does.

I don't really see how this is relevant to the point of our discussion. I've already conceded that the Bruce Wayne public persona isn't necessarily the "real" Bruce Wayne. If your argument is that Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the "real" person, I'll concede that too. It doesn't change the fact that everyone that Batman/Bruce Wayne is close to knows that Batman=Bruce Wayne. Batman has no friends who know him only as Batman.

Why is that? It's because people can't be "friends" with a superhero. As soon as they get within the friend "range" with Batman they want to know who is behind the mask and Batman wants to show them, because it's impossible to establish a real human connection while that wall is still up. Even if the personality doesn't change (i.e. the private Bruce Wayne is just like Batman), taking off the mask is an absolutely necessary step to maintaining and growing that relationship.

 

[Raven Crowking]

My assertion is that superheroes don't have friends. You apparently disagree with that.

I will also disagree with that. What I fail to understand, though, is what not knowing the secret identity of a superhero has to do with not being friends with said hero.

One could easily argue that you are more likely to know the secrets of your closest friends than you are to know those of mere acquaintances. In this case, the idea that most of Batman's friends know that he is Bruce Wayne would demonstrate that Batman has more friends, rather than less.

In any event, in the current DC Universe, Batman's ID became public to people outside his inner circle with the events of the JLA story "Tower of Babel". Prior to that, only the Bat-family, Ra's al Ghul, and Superman knew who Batman was. Revealing his secret identity was intended as a sign of trust and greater friendship, to heal the fractured League (who voted Batman out after they discovered he was making plans to take them down if need be.....because Ra's al Ghul hacked the Batcomputer and used Batman's emergency plans against them!).


RC

 

[Remathilis]

OK. Name a few. And remember, we're talking about people who are friends with Batman only. If they know Batman is Bruce Wayne they don't count.

Both of whom know that Batman=Bruce Wayne, thus disqualifying them from inclusion in the "friends with Batman only" category.

Well, there's Commissioner Gorden. And Selena Kyle (though that relationship is a bit antagonistic as well). Harvey Dent was also, before going insane.

 

[Garthanos]

My assertion is that superheroes don't have friends. You apparently disagree with that. I think I'm perfectly justified in asking you to name people who are friends with Batman in his superhero identity only. If you can't, I don't see how you have any basis for disagreeing with me.

Batman doesnt use his bruce wayne identity ... to connect to people or make friends with people at all if you concede that "Bruce Wayne" is a falsehood.... it makes for a crappy tool to connect with real people, he isnt revealing a real part of himself.

The fact that he lets people he trust know about the persona nongrata bruce wayne does not mean he uses that identity to establish friendships (which sounded like the whole assertion of this)... it is indeed still a sign that he trusts them.. because he needs the identity. (it is so much less important to him than Clark and other secret but real identities are)

What he is doing when he shares "Bruce Wayne" is not saying this is another part of me you can establish contact with or for me to share with you.. its more like I have this tool I trust you not to break it.

It is only marginally useful for connecting to other heros because there once was an 8 year old who died... when his family died.

 

[Cadfan]

Psst...

[SBLOCK]It doesn't make sense to argue whether superheroes have friends, because superheroes aren't real and all of their traits are made up by authors who have different visions for their characters and the worlds in which they live. So no matter what assertion you make, someone somewhere is going to have published a superhero story where your assertion is wrong. Or if they haven't yet, someone could, and with the number of comics out there someday someone probably will.[/SBLOCK]

 

[Garthanos]

Oh yup forgot that... thanks CadFan
heheh the story is "usually" presented as the opposite of supermans and many others giving it a flavor of uniqueness... there are indeed many interpretations by many authors...

There have been more than one reason given for supers to have a secret identity... but they arent all the exactly same... batman doesnt even seem to care whether he has a normal life in most cases.