D&D General System and RP NPC interactions

[delph]

Hi, I'm here with one frustration from talk after play....
Our GM has a problem with our interactions with NPC through using the system because it's not "RP" and we have to persuade/intimidate himself. Or use a subtle Suggestion spell. It's almost banned.
Doesn't matter that sorcerer with persuasion proficiency roll really high when the player doesn't give RP speech with.

Nothing other isn't a problem. Falling from 10 m without injury? No even I or he don't know how it's possible. Use magic to do incredibly things,... but when it's about using words we have to use them. Seducing imaginary girl on VTT through a microphone when on other side is sitting another man.

Our oppose to use dice and then on roll based do small RP isn't taken as point...

So how do you play this things? Maybe I found here some good points how to play to talk about with our GM.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Probably better off talking to your GM about this than to us.

I also require my players to roleplay social interactions. That doesn't mean I insist on good acting, and if you're uncomfortable speaking in character then it's okay just to describe and summarise what your character is doing. However, that requires some actual description.

This is good:

"I tell him about the people in the village that got killed and appeal to his sense of humanity to help us."

This is not:

"I try and persuade him to help us."

In the first case I'd probably ask you to roll a Charisma check, in the second I would ask 'how?' Otherwise I'd just be bored the whole game.

 

[delph]

Probably better off talking to your GM about this than to us.

I also require my players to roleplay social interactions. That doesn't mean I insist on good acting, and if you're uncomfortable speaking in character then it's okay just to describe and summarise what your character is doing. However, that requires some actual description.

This is good:

"I tell him about the people in the village that got killed and appeal to his sense of humanity to help us."

This is not:

"I try and persuade him to help us."

In the first case I'd probably ask you to roll a Charisma check, in the second I would ask 'how?' Otherwise I'd just be bored the whole game.

But we try the second version, but it's not enough for him. He wanna play those dialogs.
"Dear man, please we are tired and wounded. Please help us and god helps you...."
or
"How cute girl, your eyes are like blue blossoms and smile like warm summer sun..."

but that's not bad, but when we try to handle price we can't tell "look how it shine" when he answer "It's rusty old sh*t" etc.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

The GM sounds like they want you to play your character and not "press buttons" your character sheet.

All you need to do is describe what your character is doing and what goal they are trying to accomplish. You don't need flowery words, just be reasonably specific (in first or third person) in your description.

 

[iserith]

The GM sounds like they want you to play your character and not "press buttons" your character sheet.

All you need to do is describe what your character is doing and what goal they are trying to accomplish. You don't need flowery words, just be reasonably specific (in first or third person) in your description.

This. Depending on what version of the game you're playing, you probably want to avoid rolling so try not to think of things in terms of "making skill checks." The d20 is swingy and will kill you if it gets half a chance. So don't rely on it. State what the character does and what the character hopes to accomplish. Be reasonably specific. Then wait for the DM to narrate the result or ask for a roll.

You can accomplish this through active roleplaying (e.g. "I try to persuade the king to lend his forces to our cause. 'Please, Your Highness, we implore you to commit your army to this battle as your ancestor did at the Hills of Argh...'") or descriptive roleplaying (e.g. "Ragnar tries to persuade the king to commit his army by reminding him of his noble ancestor's great deeds."). Think of your ability checks and skill proficiencies as insurance just in case you have to roll. But don't try to advocate rolling because that's not optimal play.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Ask him what the Persuasion, Deception and Intimidation skills do in his game?
You don't need to be confrontational about it. Just find out in what sort of situations you would actually be using those skills.

Similar to Turnip Farmer, I ask for at least a rough approach if the player doesn't want to play out the conversation, and I might give bonuses based on the approach. However, if I don't think failure or success will be automatic, I'll be asking for a charisma roll in most cases.

I wouldn't ask the player of the barbarian to lift me off the ground for a Strength check, so I'm not going to ask a player to have to persuade me for a Charisma check.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This. Depending on what version of the game you're playing, you probably want to avoid rolling so try not to think of things in terms of "making skill checks." The d20 is swingy and will kill you if it gets half a chance. So don't rely on it. State what the character does and what the character hopes to accomplish. Be reasonably specific. Then wait for the DM to narrate the result or ask for a roll.

You can accomplish this through active roleplaying (e.g. "I try to persuade the king to lend his forces to our cause. 'Please, Your Highness, we implore you to commit your army to this battle as your ancestor did at the Hills of Argh...'") or descriptive roleplaying (e.g. "Ragnar tries to persuade the king to commit his army by reminding him of his noble ancestor's great deeds."). Think of your ability checks and skill proficiencies as insurance just in case you have to roll. But don't try to advocate rolling because that's not optimal play.

It could be that, but I've come across DMs who are unreasonable in terms of the amount and detail of RP/description they want.

At some point, you have to accept the character is good at things that the player isn't. We take this for granted with magic, fighting, athletics, hunting, climbing a rope, spotting a trap, and so on. Just because the player is about as socially perceptive as a potato doesn't mean his character's Passive Insight (or active Insight checks) should be penalised or disallowed. Yet some DMs really do want to try and RP the entire thing out - obviously as you say this can work to your advantage in terms of avoiding rolls, but it can also pretty much invalidate some fairly serious investments in characters.

I think D&D maybe excessively forces people towards attempting to talk-around rolls because as you the d20 is so swing-y. In most systems, where you either have a varied margin of success, or which are "likely to succeed but maybe at a cost" systems like PtbA or Resistance, you see more, I dunno natural description of what they character is doing, and less attempts to carefully phrase things to convince the DM to avoid a roll (something I've been very guilty of myself), which can be almost as anti-immersive as "I roll Persuasion", and much more time-consuming!

All that said, this is a really broad spectrum. At one end, you have DMs who want you to basically deliver the Gettysburg Address to an NPC who you're trying to buy a couple of horses from (I really have had a DM like that - he got over it eventually thankfully and it wasn't D&D), and faaaaaaar away at the other end, you have the DM I played with a few months ago, who. Punctuated. 16. Literally. 8. Every. 13. Sentence. 21. With. 19. A. 2. Persuasion. 7. Roll. 14. It's like, for naughty word's sake, at least let me present my goddamn argument to the NPC before making me roll - you don't even know if it's any good!

I wouldn't ask the player of the barbarian to lift me off the ground for a Strength check, so I'm not going to ask a player to have to persuade me for a Charisma check.

I would generally ask them what their argument/leverage/etc. is though, just like you'd consider the physical circumstances with a barbarian lifting a dude. You gotta get some context. There are players (including some of my players) who sometimes lapse into "I roll Intimidate", and it's like, no dude, you say what you do, I tell you what to roll.

 

[iserith]

It could be that, but I've come across DMs who are unreasonable in terms of the amount and detail of RP/description they want.

At some point, you have to accept the character is good at things that the player isn't. We take this for granted with magic, fighting, athletics, hunting, climbing a rope, spotting a trap, and so on. Just because the player is about as socially perceptive as a potato doesn't mean his character's Passive Insight (or active Insight checks) should be penalised or disallowed. Yet some DMs really do want to try and RP the entire thing out - obviously as you say this can work to your advantage in terms of avoiding rolls, but it can also pretty much invalidate some fairly serious investments in characters.

I think D&D maybe excessively forces people towards attempting to talk-around rolls because as you the d20 is so swing-y. In most systems, where you either have a varied margin of success, or which are "likely to succeed but maybe at a cost" systems like PtbA or Resistance, you see more, I dunno natural description of what they character is doing, and less attempts to carefully phrase things to convince the DM to avoid a roll (something I've been very guilty of myself), which can be almost as anti-immersive as "I roll Persuasion", and much more time-consuming!

All that said, this is a really broad spectrum. At one end, you have DMs who want you to basically deliver the Gettysburg Address to an NPC who you're trying to buy a couple of horses from (I really have had a DM like that - he got over it eventually thankfully and it wasn't D&D), and faaaaaaar away at the other end, you have the DM I played with a few months ago, who. Punctuated. 16. Literally. 8. Every. 13. Sentence. 21. With. 19. A. 2. Persuasion. 7. Roll. 14. It's like, for naughty word's sake, at least let me present my goddamn argument to the NPC before making me roll - you don't even know if it's any good!


I would generally ask them what their argument/leverage/etc. is though, just like you'd consider the physical circumstances with a barbarian lifting a dude. You gotta get some context. There are players (including some of my players) who sometimes lapse into "I roll Intimidate", and it's like, no dude, you say what you do, I tell you what to roll.

There are definitely DMs who want unstructured social interaction challenges and who will basically just present quirky, cagey NPCs with put-on accents that you have to deal with until everyone gets bored at which point they relent. It's exceedingly and sadly common in my experience.

At the same time, as I outline in my post, it's not difficult for most players to just say what they do and what they hope to accomplish with reasonable specificity without pushing mechanics. Social interaction is the same as combat or exploration in this regard. No flowery words or reading of the DM required. If the DM needs more than that, then yeah, there's something going on with that DM that needs addressing with a conversation in my view. A DM doesn't need to hear a soliloquy to adjudicate a result.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There are definitely DMs who want unstructured social interaction challenges and who will basically just present quirky, cagey NPCs with put-on accents that you have to deal with until everyone gets bored at which point they relent. It's exceedingly and sadly common in my experience.

Right? It's bizarrely common.

I've seen experienced DMs who are usually entirely reasonable suddenly lapse into this behaviour! It's like, why are you doing that? I've always tried to not do it, because I was exposed to it so much in my early D&D career.

A DM doesn't need to hear a soliloquy to adjudicate a result.

Yeah though if you have one in you, and everyone enjoys it, that may be an auto-success or at least Advantage and give you an Inspiration point!

 

[turnip_farmer]

There are definitely DMs who want unstructured social interaction challenges and who will basically just present quirky, cagey NPCs with put-on accents that you have to deal with until everyone gets bored at which point they relent. It's exceedingly and sadly common in my experience.

At the same time, as I outline in my post, it's not difficult for most players to just say what they do and what they hope to accomplish with reasonable specificity without pushing mechanics. Social interaction is the same as combat or exploration in this regard. No flowery words or reading of the DM required. If the DM needs more than that, then yeah, there's something going on with that DM that needs addressing with a conversation in my view. A DM doesn't need to hear a soliloquy to adjudicate a result.

But a lot of us just like talking it out.

Like I said, I don't enforce it. If a player doesn't want to act things out I will accept a description, but that's partly because I can't be bothered to be consistent. Sometimes, I'm not feeling it, or having trouble getting into an NPC, so I'll stop my silly accent and fall back into 'he tells you that..' mode.

But I'm sure there are GMs who like the acting more than me and expect the same from their players. If their players don't want to do that, a conversation is called for.