"Tabletop D&D Has Lost Its Way" Says Pathfinder Video Game Exec

Feargus Urquhart, one of the execs from Obsidian Entertainment, which is behind an upcoming Pathfinder-themed video game, told Polygon why the company chose to go with Paizo rather than WotC for tabletop fantasy inspired games. "One of the reasons we actually went with Pathfinder was ... how do you say it? I'll just say it: We were having a hard time figuring out how to move forward with Dungeons and Dragons." The issue, he says, is that "D&D is a part of Wizards of the Coast and WotC is a part of Hasbro" and that he would "love to see D&D be bought by someone and become what it was before... Become TSR again."

Of course, TSR went bankrupt, so I'm not sure wishing that on somebody is a kindness.

Urquhart is a long-time D&D video game exec, having worked on games like Neverwinter Nights 2; he points out that "I'm probably one of the people who has one of the most electronic D&D games that they've worked on". Now, of course, his company has moved on to Paizo's Pathfinder.

The upcoming Obsidian video games will be based on the Pathfinder games - specifically a tablet game based on the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, due in the next few months. The studio is, of course, known to tabletop RPG fans for D&D games like Neverwinter Nights 2. Urquhart did hint at non-card-game based projects, saying that "We're thinking about how can we take traditional RPG stuff and put it on the tablet. No one has solved it really."

You can read the short interview here.

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[Evenglare]

Here's some numbers that may be more worth comparing.

The 5th Edition Player's Handbook is currently the 104th best selling book on Amazon. The Pathfinder Player's Handbook is currently 3,006th. Now granted the two books were released 5 years apart which is going to be a considerable factor. So let's try again with two books released more closely together. Please note, that I did not check these numbers prior to starting this post.

The D&D 5E Monster Manual was released 2 months before Pathfinder's Monster Codex and costs $10 more than Pathfinder's Monster Codex. With the more recent release and the lower price, Pathfinder should have the advantage here. after all, these are both hardcover monster splat books. Right?

5E Monster Manual: #236
Pathfinder Monster Codex: #72,236

I'm not making these numbers up.

To be fair though, one is a must have core rulebook while the other is a splatbook about monsters, when paizo already has 3 monster manuals out.

 

[delericho]

The D&D 5E Monster Manual was released 2 months before Pathfinder's Monster Codex and costs $10 more than Pathfinder's Monster Codex. With the more recent release and the lower price, Pathfinder should have the advantage here. after all, these are both hardcover monster splat books.

They're not even remotely comparable books. The D&D one is a core rulebook for the game. The Pathfinder one is not only not the main monster book for the game, but it's not even the equivalent of "Monster Manual 4". It's closer to something like "Libris Mortis" - a nice-to-have for some people, but very definitely peripheral.

Since you're comparing Amazon sales numbers, you should also compare the Amazon prices: $31.61 for the 352-page Monster Manual versus $31.99 for the 256-page Monster Codex. So the advantage there is very much with the D&D book, not the Pathfinder one.

And, finally, the sales vectors are very different as well: WotC don't do direct sales, making Amazon probably the big place to get D&D books, followed by the FLGS. For Pathfinder an awful lot of sales are through subscriptions.

The thing is, your underlying point is probably right - I suspect D&D is indeed outselling Pathfinder right now. But your comparison here is, I'm afraid, sufficiently flawed as to be meaningless.

 

[Xavian Starsider]

The price difference is only 38 cents. I don't think the 38 cents is going to make a significant difference. Especially since the amount that Amazon shaves off the full retail price is largely based on how well it sells. Bigger sellers = bigger orders = bigger discounts. If Pathfinder's sales were comparable to D&D's it would be marked down just as much. The fact that they're not is only further evidence.

 

[delericho]

The price difference is only 38 cents. I don't think the 38 cents is going to make a significant difference.

No, but the 100 extra pages in the MM probably is.

 

[Xavian Starsider]

Let's try this then. Hoard of the Dragon Queen. D&D Adventure. Aug 19, 2014. $22.41 on Amazon. Rank #1,777

Pathfinder Adventure Path: Iron Gods Part 1. Pathfinder Adventure. Sep 9, 2014. $15.96 on Amazon. Rank #64,513.

But I'll concede your points about direct sales. This is the thing to me, though. Pathfinder is not a brand in the way D&D is a brand. Pathfinder is beloved for its system not for its setting. If Pathfinder were to announce Pathfinder 2nd Edition, and come out with an entirely series of mechanics like D&D just did...yes, a lot of people would probably be intrigued and many would follow but a vast number more would stubbornly refuse, wanting their books (many of which were made by WotC) to remain relevant, and would stay with Pathfinder/3.5. And a new edition would do almost nothing for attracting new/former players to the game. But a far greater percentage followed D&D to 5th edition.

 

[delericho]

A wider point on the D&D vs Pathfinder comparison: it's almost completely irrelevant. They're two different products from two very different companies.

Pathfinder is Paizo's flagship product. That's where they make their money.

D&D isn't even WotC's flagship product (Magic), and it's barely even a blip on the Hasbro radar. Things are slightly different at the moment, because D&D has had a huge sales spike because of the new edition (which, it would appear, has indeed done phenomenally well). But twelve months from now, it'll be back to being a blip - and that's whether they release 0, 5, or 20 new books this year.

The money from D&D lies in licensing, be it movies, video games, or whatever.

What that means in real terms is this: D&D could outsell Pathfinder by a ratio of 10-to-1, and we could still have a situation where Hasbro cancel D&D as being not worth bothering with at the same time as Paizo consider Pathfinder a runaway success.

 

[delericho]

But I'll concede your points about direct sales. This is the thing to me, though. Pathfinder is not a brand in the way D&D is a brand. Pathfinder is beloved for its system not for its setting.

Eh. Lots of people like Pathfinder for lots of different reasons - some like the system, some like the setting, some like the company and want to support them. Apparently, many people buy their APs to read with no intention of actually playing/running them.

yes, a lot of people would probably be intrigued and many would follow but a vast number more would stubbornly refuse...

But a far greater percentage followed D&D to 5th edition.

Unless you have market research from Paizo and WotC to share (and I doubt anyone has access to both), you can't know these proportions. In both cases, some people would move, or have moved, to the new edition, and some people would stick, or have stuck, with the old. But we don't know what percentages fall into each camp.

And none of this is a value judgement on either D&D or Pathfinder. I have purchased products for both, and I like both. In future, it looks like I'll spend more money on Pathfinder but actually play more D&D - the former simply because of a much fuller release schedule, and the latter because I actually prefer (what I've seen of) the game engine.

 

[Uchawi]

I read the article as Paizo was willing to agree to our terms, so we did not even approach WOTC. If at the time, WOTC had solid footing with the D&D brand, then the commentary would not be released. However, the RPG community in relation to games and/or developers is small. So Obsidian should be careful with the perception of being overly critical. It could come back to bite them.

What happened in the past is history, best to look forward.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let's try this then. Hoard of the Dragon Queen. D&D Adventure. Aug 19, 2014. $22.41 on Amazon. Rank #1,777

Pathfinder Adventure Path: Iron Gods Part 1. Pathfinder Adventure. Sep 9, 2014. $15.96 on Amazon. Rank #64,513.

But I'll concede your points about direct sales.

Let's just add in
Hoard of the Dragon Queen. D&D Adventure. Aug 19, 2014. $22.41 on Amazon. Rank #1,777
The Rise of Tiamat (D&D Adventure) Hardcover – November 4, 2014 $21.61 on Amazon. Rank #3,173 in Books

HotDQ is selling well because it is the first 5e adventure. If the first PHB, the first MM, the first DMG, and the first adventure don't sell well for a big brand there's a serious problem. Iron Gods on the other hand is competing with every previous adventure path. Why would people buy Iron Gods when there are fourteen other adventure paths? (And precisely one other 5e adventure).

A wider point on the D&D vs Pathfinder comparison: it's almost completely irrelevant. They're two different products from two very different companies.

Pathfinder is Paizo's flagship product. That's where they make their money.

D&D isn't even WotC's flagship product (Magic), and it's barely even a blip on the Hasbro radar. Things are slightly different at the moment, because D&D has had a huge sales spike because of the new edition (which, it would appear, has indeed done phenomenally well). But twelve months from now, it'll be back to being a blip - and that's whether they release 0, 5, or 20 new books this year.

The money from D&D lies in licensing, be it movies, video games, or whatever.

What that means in real terms is this: D&D could outsell Pathfinder by a ratio of 10-to-1, and we could still have a situation where Hasbro cancel D&D as being not worth bothering with at the same time as Paizo consider Pathfinder a runaway success.

Last time I checked it wasn't D&D that had raised over a million dollars at kickstarter for an MMO.

 

[delericho]

Last time I checked it wasn't D&D that had raised over a million dollars at kickstarter for an MMO.

True, but that's a somewhat cheeky comparison as well - last I checked, D&D has never tried. (And, actually, I would be really interested to see what would happen if they did. )