Tactical Boardgame?

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Walking Dad
Qustions:
How many reach weapons are used in your group?
How many AoO specialists are in your group?
How did you determine if somebody has cover from another ceature to ranged attacks?
How did you determine how many players are in the area of a spell effect (burst, cone, ...)?

Well said, bravo...

This is the problem...one, getting players like this who take advantage of rules (the aforementioned AoO specialist) and two a system that practically begs them to take advantage of it.

A pikeman is not a fantasy staple? That's an AoO specialist. And, is someone using a reach weapon really that broken? I think there's a whole lot of people that would disagree with you on that one.

You're making assumptions that just aren't supported by the rules.

 

[Anthraxus]

Let's see, pregenerated characters, with no choice in creation, presented in a delve-format, yeah THAT IS A TACTICAL BOARDGAME, just like any Combat focused Pregen event. 3E Living Greyhawk was like that. (YMMV, Keoland)

Huh? I don't understand the Living Greyhawk comment, here.

 

[LEHaskell]

Or were they called lead figurines? Hmmm, it's been a while.

Figures.

Gamers collect figures.

Your grandmother collects figurines.

 

[Saishu_Heiki]

My friend and I used to play a completely narrative game back in the day (based loosely off D&D). No books, no character sheets, no rules. It was a lot of fun, and there was no rules-based formality needed. We were crafting an interactive, cooperative story.

After awhile, we moved on to AD&D because we wanted the structure that such a system provides. In no way did this invalidate the fun that we had in our Adventures, and we even played a few more every once in a while.

We found that we were able to bring a lot of the fun of the cooperative storytelling forward into AD&D. The dice were there when we needed them, and ignored when we didn't. Same thing happened when we moved to 3.0, the dice were there to adjudicate combat and some mechanical parts but the narrative was left solely in our hands and words. I see no reason why 4e will change this. The rules are there as a safety net, but the fact is we can still tell our stories and have fun, just with a few different mechanical effects.

 

[Talislan]

I don't know the answer but I always thought

Figures = need to paint
Miniature = probable need to paint
Mini = pre-painted (no paint required, but if I want them to look any good I might want to repaint them to fulfill the needs of my own vanity)

Don't know why and I have no evidence to back up my reasoning. go figure.

On Topic: my differentiation of RPG and tactical wargame is:

Tactical Wargames start at the beginning of a battle and end with the battle ending.
Players control units &/or armies in strategic tactical situations.

RPG's start with a bunch of people going on a journey and maybe getting in a few scrapes, which require some tactical battle mechanics within the game, and exploring the idea of having some adventures. RPG's end when the people playing them are done RP'ing.
RPG players control a single character with the aim of developing it/him/her over time.


Again I have no proof of these statement apart from the abitrary reasonings of my subconscious. However another clue I often rely on is that of what the Game is called. Doesn't always work but I never got Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay confused.

T.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

I literally have played with DMs who don't even allow their players to role dice, you simply tell the DM what you want to do and he crunches all the numbers behind the scenes and then tells you in a dramatic narrative how the combat went. To me this is what RPGs are all about, sitting around a table listening and telling a story and I'm sad to not only see new rules not support this but also see how the up and coming generations will not be able to experience this wonderful element of the game.

My first DM was something similar to what you describe... and we put up with him because we didn't know better. When that group disbanded and some of us started playing with other groups and buying the books to DM ourselves ...well, lets say no one I know plays that style anymore.

If I wanted "interactive entertainment" where I am given a couple of options every so often, but where real control of the story is elsewhere, then I would re-read one of my old "choose your own adventure" books... or play a Japanese-type CRPG.

Make no mistake: Players want the rules to be clear and free from DM fiat as much as possible. Third edition was a great step on that direction, and I expect Fourth Edition to continue in that thread.

One of the many steps taken to empower players is to use a battlemat for combat. That way, the players can visualize the battlefield just as well as the DM and can make decisions based in this information. A battlemat is cheap nowadays (or you can print it out) and you can use colored glass beads if you don't want to get into the expensive "collectible mini" thing.

The ideal DM is an adjudicator and facilitator, not The Storyteller (despite what WhiteWolf would tell you). The whole group along with the DM should be the storytellers in a well run roleplaying game.

 

[pawsplay]

I finally figured out what is bothering me.

The "I played 4E at D&D XP and it is just a Tactical Boardgame" meme. It's spreading hard, especially among people who were anti-4e but "keeping an open mind". It seems to have traction amongst D20 publishers. (Chris Pramas; Henry Lopez from Living Arcanis)

Let's see, pregenerated characters, with no choice in creation, presented in a delve-format, yeah THAT IS A TACTICAL BOARDGAME, just like any Combat focused Pregen event. 3E Living Greyhawk was like that. (YMMV, Keoland)

See, my assumption is that there were struck by 4e's self-avowed unreality and contempt for simulation.

 

[Hussar]

See, my assumption is that there were struck by 4e's self-avowed unreality and contempt for simulation.

OTOH, to me, board games are ALL about simulationism. I mean, any board game beyond Snakes and Ladders usually tries to simulate something. Monopoly is a simplistic economic simulation. Advanced Squad Leader is a massive sim game. So, maybe they were talking about how 4e has become this huge simulationist playground.



... what?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Huh? I don't understand the Living Greyhawk comment, here.

Most LG adventures I played, in brief:

DM: One paragraph of backstory, and you're standing at the door outside of the first encounter of four that you will face.

PCs: We totally game the system and ignore all character-based concerns in order to totally mulch all four encounters as quickly as possible so that we don't go over the time limit.

DM: You win. Here is your pre-determined pile of loot, which does not necessarily reflect what was actually in the possession of the monsters you fought. Also, one paragraph of debriefing to maintain the illusion that this is part of an ongoing shared-universe plot.

IME LG was a tactical boardgame. Four fights, no time for chatter.

 

[cdrcjsn]

IME LG was a tactical boardgame. Four fights, no time for chatter.

I feel bad for your LG experience. Roleplaying is abundant in the LG games I play. Might be a function of players or DMs in your area.

As for the question at hand...is it just my impression, or do most people arguing for the boardgame feel of 4e seem to not use battlemaps in their games currently?

I never used battlemaps for basic, 1e, or 2e. I played my first several sessions of 3.0 before buying my first battlemap.

For those that don't use battlemaps, I highly encourage you to get one, regardless of the game system you use. I can't recall all the time I've wasted in arguments over positioning prior to using battlemaps.

Using battlemaps doesn't mean you roleplay less. The battle grid doesn't appear under your character's feet unless combat occurs typically, so I really don't understand the "less roleplaying" argument. Other than throwing insults in character, what sort of roleplaying do people do during actual combat? If combat doesn't occur, then there is no battlemap.