Talent Trees

[DarkWhite]

We don't yet know how talent trees will work, but some ideas I'd like to see:

Assuming that each class has more than one talent tree to choose from:

- Talent trees that could be chosen by more than one class, eg a Wilderness talent tree that could be taken by Rangers or Druids.

- The possibility that new talent trees could be introduced down the track, eg swapping out a Ranger's Wilderness talent tree for an Undead Lore or Planewalker talent tree.

This concept would serve a similar purpose to substitution levels, prestige classes or variant base classes - a character could function as Ranger of a different flavour, but identify himself as an Undead Hunter or Planewalker from 1st level with in-theme abilities appropriate to each level without having to wait to qualify for some distant prestige class.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

Okay just imagine the classic Cleric roles. Healer, backup fighter, party buffer...and then we add a new tree. Evil Undead Tree. Control undead, necromantic buffer. I love talent trees. I just want to see a wide and wild range of them.

And then I multi class into Wizard and take the Necromantic tree there to summon and create undead. Instant super Zombie lord.

What's not to like?

 

[SSquirrel]

I just want to see a wide and wild range of them.

And with this statement I see the future of 4E. 3E was the era of prestige clases. 4E will be the era of talent trees. Every book will be chock full of them.

"OK Bill, ity's time to pick your cleric's talent trees. What would you like to use?"
"Well what are my options?"
"Well I have 46 different talent trees available to you between these 20 issues of Dragon, 10 WotC supplements and another 5 3rd party books"
"Hmm....maybe a Rogue instead"
"87 trees for him"
"Screw it, can we play Vampire/OD&D/Rolemaster/(insert favorite debatably lighter weight system here) instead of this?"

 

[Khaalis]

I don't see it being as bad as all that Squirrel. Yes there will likely be SOME new talent trees, but seriously. How many role concepts can you come up with per class? I still see 4E being an age of Prestige Classes. THIS is how most of the new Talent Trees will come into play. If SAGA is truly a preview, it lends credibility to the idea. The 'base' classes are all being designed with very specific "jobs" that will be focused on with their talent trees. I don't see these being expanded on a whole lot. New 'base' classes to fill roles such as additions of monks, druids, bards, etc. and all the other 'base' classes that aren't in the PHB and new PrC's will be the core concept of expansion material.

 

[Anthtriel]

I don't see it being as bad as all that Squirrel. Yes there will likely be SOME new talent trees, but seriously. How many role concepts can you come up with per class? I still see 4E being an age of Prestige Classes. THIS is how most of the new Talent Trees will come into play. If SAGA is truly a preview, it lends credibility to the idea. The 'base' classes are all being designed with very specific "jobs" that will be focused on with their talent trees. I don't see these being expanded on a whole lot. New 'base' classes to fill roles such as additions of monks, druids, bards, etc. and all the other 'base' classes that aren't in the PHB and new PrC's will be the core concept of expansion material.

If you have special talent trees with requirements, you can do everything that prestige classes do and more. It's superior design in many ways, so like Squirrel, I expect this to be one of the materials that fills splatbooks. Chuck in some flavor about people who take talents from those talent trees, and you have used up almost as much space as a prestige class would have.
And you can always expand on talent trees already out there.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Okay just imagine the classic Cleric roles. Healer, backup fighter, party buffer...and then we add a new tree. Evil Undead Tree. Control undead, necromantic buffer. I love talent trees. I just want to see a wide and wild range of them.

And then I multi class into Wizard and take the Necromantic tree there to summon and create undead. Instant super Zombie lord.

There have been indications that necromancer and illusionist might be entirely separate base classes, not just talent trees. If so, that raises the design question of when do you go with a talent tree, a prestige class, or a new base class?

 

[Sir Brennen]

And with this statement I see the future of 4E. 3E was the era of prestige clases. 4E will be the era of talent trees. Every book will be chock full of them.

"OK Bill, ity's time to pick your cleric's talent trees. What would you like to use?"
"Well what are my options?"
"Well I have 46 different talent trees available to you between these 20 issues of Dragon, 10 WotC supplements and another 5 3rd party books"
"Hmm....maybe a Rogue instead"
"87 trees for him"
"Screw it, can we play Vampire/OD&D/Rolemaster/(insert favorite debatably lighter weight system here) instead of this?"

Or:

"Well Billy, since you aren't that familiar with the system, just stick with the cleric talent trees in the PHB for now. If you see something you like in a splatbook later on, there's retraining rules in the game so you can change your character when you're more comfortable with the system."

 

[erf_beto]

Or:

"Well Billy, since you aren't that familiar with the system, just stick with the cleric talent trees in the PHB for now. If you see something you like in a splatbook later on, there's retraining rules in the game so you can change your character when you're more comfortable with the system."

That's what I would say...

If you have special talent trees with requirements, you can do everything that prestige classes do and more. It's superior design in many ways, so like Squirrel, I expect this to be one of the materials that fills splatbooks. Chuck in some flavor about people who take talents from those talent trees, and you have used up almost as much space as a prestige class would have.
And you can always expand on talent trees already out there.

Same here. I like talent trees and I hope they kill prestige class and take its stuff.

 

[Anthtriel]

There have been indications that necromancer and illusionist might be entirely separate base classes, not just talent trees. If so, that raises the design question of when do you go with a talent tree, a prestige class, or a new base class?

You do it the 3E way: Make it into everything at once. If you combine all the splat books, all major and some minor character archetypes can be done in multiple ways in 3E, I suspect 4E will be similar.

Besides, didn't they say Prestige Classes are dead and replaced with "something similar"? Like talent trees? (Then again, I also seem to remember that talent trees are not in, but "something similar").

 

[Counterspin]

Taking Star Wars as an example, I don't think there's going to be more than three or four talent trees per class, with prestige classes and multiclassing being used to give access to more options.