D&D 5E Tasha's and Haste

[Blue]

Just a couple quick questions about the Haste action and how it interacts with Tasha's. Could be some interesting optimization fodder.

Haste grants an additional action that can be used for a short list of things, including the Attack action but you only get one attack.

* A Path of the Beast Barbarian with the Claws option has "when you attack with a claw as an Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action". Which is more specific - Haste or this? In other words, they mention in the beginning of the book that specific beats out general. Is this "more specific" so that single Haste attack could add a second claw attack?

* Can a Bladesinger 6 use their "You can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks" rider on their Extra Attack during that Haste Attack?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Definitely the intention is for the spell to stack last, or in your words be the "most specific".

So, your Hasted Beast Barbarian could make an extra single claw attack from the haste, and your Bladesinger can make an attack with a cantrip, but only if they haven't used a cantrip already.

If it's easier, perhaps think of it this way: Haste gives you +1 attacks to your attack action, effectively making the Bladesinger's Extra Attack w/Haste: You can make 3 attacks. One of them can be a cantrip. And the Beast Barbarian with Extra Attack & Haste winds up able to make 4 claw attacks (but not 5).

That's how I read it, anyway. I'm sure people can (and will) argue about it.

 

[Blue]

Definitely the intention is for the spell to stack last, or in your words be the "most specific".

So, your Hasted Beast Barbarian could make an extra single claw attack from the haste, and your Bladesinger can make an attack with a cantrip, but only if they haven't used a cantrip already.

If it's easier, perhaps think of it this way: Haste gives you +1 attacks to your attack action, effectively making the Bladesinger's Extra Attack w/Haste: You can make 3 attacks. One of them can be a cantrip. And the Beast Barbarian with Extra Attack & Haste winds up able to make 4 claw attacks (but not 5).

That's how I read it, anyway. I'm sure people can (and will) argue about it.

Sorry, I don't agree with either of your interpretations of the rules. Haste explicitly does not do what you said it does. If you choose that option it gives a separate Attack action, though a limited oun.

For example, you can dodge or disengage or cast a spell with your normal action, and then take an attack with the Hasted Attack action. There is no "+1 attack with your attack action", that's not how it works at all. Heck, that Haste Attack action could even satisfy you using the bonus action off hand attack, since you have taken an Attack action.

Also, we have long experience with multiple attack actions in a round from action surge - that has no limitations on it. So it makes no sense that the bladesinger ability, which allows you to substitute a cantrip for one attack in an Attack action, would only be allowed to trigger once.

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

 

[jsaving]

Haste grants a weaker version of the attack action that explicitly limits you to one swing of your weapon. It does that specifically to override the additional attacks that would otherwise trigger as part of a normal attack action. Because your extra claw attack is predicated on receiving a normal attack action, I would rule against haste giving you an extra claw attack.

 

[BacchusNL]

Sorry, I don't agree with either of your interpretations of the rules. Haste explicitly does not do what you said it does. If you choose that option it gives a separate Attack action, though a limited oun.

For example, you can dodge or disengage or cast a spell with your normal action, and then take an attack with the Hasted Attack action. There is no "+1 attack with your attack action", that's not how it works at all. Heck, that Haste Attack action could even satisfy you using the bonus action off hand attack, since you have taken an Attack action.

Also, we have long experience with multiple attack actions in a round from action surge - that has no limitations on it. So it makes no sense that the bladesinger ability, which allows you to substitute a cantrip for one attack in an Attack action, would only be allowed to trigger once.

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

It helps if you link the full text, my dude.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The spell creates a special extra action with special limitations. No character ability (unless it were to specifically reference overriding the limitations of special limited actions) should be able to expand that special limited action to do the things it specifically does not allow. They may not take the "Attack action" with it, only the "Attack (one weapon attack only) action" with it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

Whatever. Remind me not to answer your questions again, then. The thing I was trying to say about the additional attack was only meant as a "if it helps you to understand how it works" not my literal reading of the text. These others have explained it better than I did, maybe you'll listen to them, then?

 

[cbwjm]

This has been brought up before and I think that I'd allow the bladesinger to use the haste attack to cast a cantrip in addition to the cantrip cast as part of their regular attack action. It isn't exactly game breaking.

Someone else has pointed out though that the beast barbarian is only able to make the extra attack once.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Haste grants a weaker version of the attack action that explicitly limits you to one swing of your weapon. It does that specifically to override the additional attacks that would otherwise trigger as part of a normal attack action. Because your extra claw attack is predicated on receiving a normal attack action, I would rule against haste giving you an extra claw attack.

It isn’t predicated on a “normal attack action”, it’s predicated on making at least one attack as part of the attack action.

 

[Blue]

It helps if you link the full text, my dude.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

Sure, you can't do it with two Attack actions. But my example you quoted suggested casting a spell or using Dodge with your normal action, so your once-a-turn has not been used up.