Technology

Dogbrain

First Post
Darklone said:
19th century cavalry still wore harnesses which were impenetrable to firearms (except cannons) for ranges of more than ~30 ft.


Only a small minority of cavalry wore them.
They were only that effective against pistols and smoothbore muskets.
They were so heavy that only the front of the torso could be protected.

By the middle of the century, this armor was relegated to ceremonial use and backwards countries.


By the 1500s, firearms were good enough that limb armor was sacrificed. By 1600, it was good enough that all but the minimum (helmet and breastplate--and even then often helmet only) was light enough to wear.

After that point, armor that was any useful protection against massed firearms was so expensive that only kings could afford it. Those armies that relied upon hussars and dragoons counted upon unnerving their infantry targets. Steady infantry broke armored cavalry again and again in the 18th and 19th centuries. Cavalry was only effective against massed infantry if they caught the infantry on the flank or rear or had a great deal of supporting infantry and artillery.

The thing about firearms is that even very simple and crude models can reliably penetrate steel plate armor. This is why "bullet proof" (bullet tested) armore was invented. The ordinary armor (as in D&D Full Plate) was not worthwhile protection, even against mere matchlocks. Likewise, the velocity of the projectile meant that skill and agility (Dex bonus) was pretty much useless. Only inherent inaccuracy made such weapons less than mighty--and they still took over the battlefield before the innacuracy problem was conquered.
 

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Dogbrain

First Post
MarauderX said:
Warcraft has some mechanics that deal with firearms and such to keep it 'balanced' with a regular d20 system.


Then it isn't about firearms. It's about some silly little cartoon with "firearms" tacked on to fool the credulous.

Firearms completely changed the nature of warfare. If they truly were so feckless as to be "balanced" with archaic combat, they'd have never been adopted worldwide.
 

Dogbrain

First Post
Rifled: Rifled firearms are a new, and deadly, technology in The World. Many master gunsmiths have sought long and hard for ways to improve upon their weapons, and Rifled barrels are one such improvement. A rifled barrel is one that has a spiralling patern engraved into the inside of the barrel. As the bullet travels through the barrel these grooves cause it to spin, and it continues to spiral even after it exits the barrel. This gives the bullet a better range and accuracy than traditional smooth-bore firearms. However, the technology to craft rifled weapons is still in its infant stages, and its design can be ascertained only by the most adept of gunsmiths, thus rifled weapons cost a great deal more in time and resources - and thus their market prices are increased over those of typical smooth-bore weapons.

Mind you, this means that the gunsmiths of this world are far more stupid than are the gunsmiths of our own. Rifling was discovered very early on in our own history. It was originally invented to reduce powder fouling (give the cinders some place to go). Shooters soon discovered the great benefit of accuracy. However, for centuries, rifling was restricted to hunting and target weapons for two reasons:

It requires time to do by hand. Essentially, a barrel has to be bored twice. This doesn't increase the cost of the weapon enormously, but it does slow down production--and speed is very important when equipping an army.

More importantly, it slows down loading time significantly. I have loaded muzzle-loading smoothbores and muzzle-loading rifles. The smoothbore can usually be loaded in 1/4 the time of the rifle. When hunting or target shooting, this is no big deal. In battle, this is a very big deal.

These two things combined to mean that overall demand for rifles was much lower than for smoothbores. As anybody can tell you, this means that prices for the less common item will be far greater than the demands of labor, skill, or materials might dictate. The smith charges not only for labor/skill/materiale but also for the hassle of making an item that has not become second-nature for him to knock out. Likewise, since he doesn't turn out a whole bunch, most of his apprentices don't know how to make the barrels, so HE has to do it, and his time is much more expensive than his apprentices'...

When that price elevator kicks in, it means that only a higher class of customer would be interested in the first place. These customers are more likley to insist upon ornamentation, gold inlay, etc., driving up the "average" price of an item even more, making it even rarer.


This little lesson is meant to show that an item can be very rare and expensive without being extremely difficult to make. It only has to be just enough of a hassle to use and/or make to not let it get over that basic production/market threshold.
 

Stormborn

Explorer
Lock & Load: Iron Kingdom's Character Primer
by Douglas Seacat, J. Michael Kilmartin
ISBN: 0970697058
64 pages.
$12.95
Available online.

That the book you are looking for.
 

herald

First Post
Dogbrain said:
Mind you, this means that the gunsmiths of this world are far more stupid than are the gunsmiths of our own. Rifling was discovered very early on in our own history. It was originally invented to reduce powder fouling (give the cinders some place to go). Shooters soon discovered the great benefit of accuracy. However, for centuries, rifling was restricted to hunting and target weapons for two reasons:

It requires time to do by hand. Essentially, a barrel has to be bored twice. This doesn't increase the cost of the weapon enormously, but it does slow down production--and speed is very important when equipping an army.

More importantly, it slows down loading time significantly. I have loaded muzzle-loading smoothbores and muzzle-loading rifles. The smoothbore can usually be loaded in 1/4 the time of the rifle. When hunting or target shooting, this is no big deal. In battle, this is a very big deal.

These two things combined to mean that overall demand for rifles was much lower than for smoothbores. As anybody can tell you, this means that prices for the less common item will be far greater than the demands of labor, skill, or materials might dictate. The smith charges not only for labor/skill/materiale but also for the hassle of making an item that has not become second-nature for him to knock out. Likewise, since he doesn't turn out a whole bunch, most of his apprentices don't know how to make the barrels, so HE has to do it, and his time is much more expensive than his apprentices'...

When that price elevator kicks in, it means that only a higher class of customer would be interested in the first place. These customers are more likley to insist upon ornamentation, gold inlay, etc., driving up the "average" price of an item even more, making it even rarer.


This little lesson is meant to show that an item can be very rare and expensive without being extremely difficult to make. It only has to be just enough of a hassle to use and/or make to not let it get over that basic production/market threshold.

It also can be argued that the benefits of rifling didn't become well known universally very quickly. By the 1400's technological secrets had become like gold, and master craftsmen guarded them carefully. You can go farther back than the 1400's if you want but guild systems mainly protected makers as best as they could.
 

Greatfrito

First Post
Heheh, okay, so... honestly, I posted the older stuff even though I haven't read it in a while. I wrote a newer version (haven't gotten my hands on Iron Kingdoms yet, though it sounds interesting) last night, so here is:

Firearms Mk. III
============================================================================
============================================================================
Firearms: Firearms are any kind of weapon - commonly refered to as "guns" - which uses some form of "gunpowder" to propel a projectile at a target. There are three degrees of firearms: Simple, Average, and Complex.

Simple Guns
-----------------------------------------------
Description: Simple guns are those that have the least complex mechanical workings. These typically consist of a long metal tube down which powder and a ball are stuffed, which has a stock for the user to grip, and a way to light it in the back. When lit, the powder ignites, and the ball is expelled with great force out of the muzzel of the gun. Simple guns can be used by almost any individual who has the proper knowledge of firearms and the money to purchase one. Simple guns require simple maintanance and thus are mostly a one-time investment.

Gun Listings:
Light
Matchfire Pistol (Simple Firearm); 1d8 Dmg, 19-20/x2 Crit; 3 lb.; Standard Reload(DC 14); Upkeep DC 10
Two-Handed
Matchfire Musket (Simple Firearm); 1d10 Dmg, 19-20/x2 Crit; 5 lb.; Standard Reload(DC 14); Upkeep DC 13

Guns:
Matchfire Pistol - The matchfire pistol is a simple gun, basically a metal tube set into a wooden grip. To fire, the user must light the fuse each time using an outside source of heat (usually a tindertwig or a spell). Powder and ball are loaded into the weapon down the barrel. A matchfire pistol can be used to bludgeon an opponent as a melee weapon. A matchfire pistol used this way deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage, and has a critical of 20/x2.
Matchfire Musket - The matchfire musket is just like the matchfire pistol, though the barrel is longer and the stock is longer too. A matchfire musket deals 1d6 damage if used as a bludgeoning melee weapon.

Average Guns
-----------------------------------------------
Description: Average guns use moderately technological workings. These weapons come in basically two forms...
[Note: Discontinued Due to Lack of Third Grouping]

Complex Guns
-----------------------------------------------
Description: Complex guns are ones that use various bits of machinery in their interior. There are two types of complex firearms - breach-loading, and revolvers. Breach-loading weapons allow faster reloading than most simple guns, and thus a better firing rate. Revolvers have a revolving drum which acts like the breach on breach-loaders, though it allows you to prepare more than one shot at a time. Both forms of weapons greatly increase the potency of firearms on the battlefield.

Gun Listings:
Light
Revolver Pistol (Complex Firearm); 1d8 Dmg, 19-20/x2 Crit; 4 lb.; Full-Round Reload(DC 16); Upkeep DC 20
Breach-Loader Pistol (Complex Firearm); 1d8 Dmg, 19-20/x2; 4 lb.; Move Reload(DC 16); Upkeep DC 15
Two-Handed
Revolver Musket (Complex Firearm); 1d10 Dmg, 19-20/x2 Crit; 6 lb.; Full-Round Reload(DC 16); Upkeep DC 23
Breach-Loader Musket (Complex Firearm); 1d10 Dmg, 19-20/x2 Crit; 6 lb.; Move Reload(DC 16); Upkeep DC 18

Guns:
Revolver Pistol - The revolver pistol is a complex gun, using small machinery to fire and rotate a drum which holds several rounds of ammunition at a time. To fire, the user simply has to pull the trigger, which makes the hammer strike the gun, sparking the round and firing the shot, and also rotates the drum to the next round. This allows a revolver pistol to be fired up to six times before reloading. Reloading a revolver pistol is a full-round action, but a character may choose to instead reload only two rounds as a standard action. A revolver pistol can be used to bludgeon an opponent as a melee weapon. A revolver pistol used this way deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage, and has a critical of 20/x2.
Breach-Loader Pistol -
Revolver Musket - The revolver musket is just like the revolver pistol, though the barrel is longer and the stock is longer too. A revolver musket deals 1d6 damage if used as a bludgeoning melee weapon.
Breach-Loader Musket -

Cost and Range
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simple, Light
Matchfire Pistol 30ft.
Simple, Two-Handed
Matchfire Musket 60ft.
Complex, Light
Revolver Pistol 30ft.
Breach-Loader Pistol 30ft.
Complex, Two-Handed
Revolver Musket 60ft.
Breach-Loader Musket 60ft.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explaining Concepts
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reloading: Most common people do not know how to reload a firearm. Though it may seem common sense to those who know about the use of guns, it is usually too complex for those who are now familiar with the weapons. In order to successfully load a firearm on the first try, one much make a Knowledge: Firearms check against a DC set by the weapon type. If the check succeeds, the weapon is reloaded successfully. If it is not successful, the character still has used the time it normally takes reloading, but has failed to load any rounds into the gun.

Upkeep: Firearms, and all other pieces of artifice, require routine maintanance if they are to operate properly over an extended period of time. Each day that a weapon is used, its owner must do the necessary cleaning and maintaining of his weapon in order for it to operate properly. If a character fails to do so, either because of avoiding the topic or failing the check, he suffers a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls until the weapon is cleaned.
============================================================================
Rifled Weapons: Some newer firearms are crafted to be more accurate than other standard firearms. These guns have rifled barrels instead of smooth-bored barrels, allowing the gun to be fired at targets much more distant with a much higher chance to strike them. Rifled weapons have grooves carved upon the inside of their barrels, forcing the bullet into a spin as it exits the muzzel, and making the shots much more accurate over a distance. Any firearm can be crafted as a rifled weapon. Rifled weapons have their range increment increased by one half (+50%). Rifled weapons cost 500 more gold than a standard weapon of the type. Crafting a rifled weapon is done in the same way as crafting a masterwork weapon.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feats
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Firearm Proficiency[General]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You understand how to use firearms in combat.

Prerequisite: None
Benefit: You make attack rolls with a firearm normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls.

Firearm Familiarity[General]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You understand the inner workings of firearms.

Prerequisites: Knowledge(Firearms) 1 rank, Craft(Firearms) 1 rank
Benefit: You may take 10 on all checks for reloading or maintaining a firearm. Pressures beyond those of typical combat can force you to still make the reload check as normal.

Fast Reloading[General]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can reload firearms more quickly.

Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Firearm Familiarity, Firearm Proficiency
Benefit: You may lower the time it takes to reload a firearm by one catagory according to the following chart.
Original Reload Rate Fast Reload Rate
---------------------- ------------------
Full-Round Action Standard Action
Standard Action Move Action
Move Action Free Action*

(*: Can only reload as a free action once per round.)
When reloading at the improved rate, the Knowledge(Firearms) check DC for reloading increases by 5.
Normal: You reload at the standard rate for the firearm at the standard DC.

Improved Fast Reloading[General]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can reload firearms at a supernatural rate.

Prerequisites: Dex 19+, Fast Reloading
Benefit: You may lower the time it takes to reload a firearm by one additional catagory according to the chart in Fast Reloading. When reloading at the twice-improved rate, the Knowledge(Firearms) check DC for reloading increases by 10.
Normal: You reload at the standard rate for the firearm at the standard DC.

Vital Shot[General]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can use the piercing nature of the firearm to deal massive damage.

Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Int 13+, Firearm Familiarity, Firearm Proficiency
Benefit: When using a firearm, your critical damage multiplier is increased by 1.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, the big thing now is the need for pricing. I have absolutely no idea on that one, so any help would be appreciated.

[[Edit: Added Aditional Rules, and Feats]]
 
Last edited:

Azure Trance

First Post
I dug around for a post I made on Mortality almost a year ago to the date, referring to an older link which I found the previous year on ENWorld made by user AnimeKidd.

Here's the mortality link:
http://mortality.net/board/read.php?TID=4433&page=3

Unfortunately the AnimeKidd link was hosted on AOL, and is not working anymore. Shame too. I also make a reference to the gun rules used in Septentropolis [sic?] which also has elegant gun rules (I think it means Land of 7 Cows, 17th Cent America. Check it out - last I heard, a year ago, it was supposed to have been out on print).
 


darkmentor

First Post
heya

I fixed the problem with guns by instituting a rate of attack system that is based on how fast the weapon is to use, not the character leve. I mean really, give u or I a rapier and we could make 20 cuts in 6 seconds if we wanted, the question is: how many of those cuts mean anything? thats base attack bonus, not weapon type. so i gave all weapons a base attack rate of 1-3 per round and added defense bonuses to explain why some peaple choose a longsword over a claymore, plus i made shields worth a lot more. Am i the only one who thinks that it is dumb that a block of wood that goes from waist to neck only adds 1 pt to AC?
 

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