D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

[Psikerlord#]

5E makes it far to easy (for some style of campaigns) to get these superpowers.

Question: Should these not rather be optional?

How do I restrict these without nerfing certain races / classes?

How do I partially restrict these? Is there stuff like a dimensional anchor in 5E?

Would a sorcerer / FS be totally nerfed if he aint getting these wings? What do I give him instead?

Is it politically uncorrect not to allow a monk to shadowstep out of any shackles?

If I want to have realistic Donjons and castles in my game do I have to add iron bars on each window and inside locks and bars to tower top trapdoors to prevent PCs shadowstepping or fly-avoiding every basic medieval obstacle versus unwanted entry into a compound?

Is that waterfall a mere beauty of nature and perfect scenery of the Teleport X-games or a real obstacle for the PCs?

Sir Braveinwood the eladrin paladin fearlessly shadowsteps on the back of the hovering Dragon does he have to roll athletics or acrobatics for this?


Start ranting please

Just remove all teleportation from the players options (or perhaps only leave very high level teleports, like the 7th level one, I think it is?), if you don't want them. It's not really a big deal and will make the game more challenging which for 5e is definitely a good thing.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In B/X, a 5th-level magic-user has accumulated 20,000 experience points. His spell slots are 2/2/1. So yes, he can cast fly once per day if he memorizes it. He has ~13 hit points, so he'd better be careful where he flies.

At max level (14th/1,050,000 XP), he can cast 6th-level spells, and there's no contingency or clone or anything like that to bail him out. He's got about 28 hit points now. A 10 HD red dragon will breathe for 45 and claw/claw/bite for 1d8/1d8/4d8. He's also got spell slots, so maybe he casts dispel magic on the hapless M-U.

The Classic D&D magic-user ain't no superhero.

There's really no comparison at all, to the extent I'm surprised folks are trying to make the argument.

Yup, flying around, casting fireballs, fighting dragons... not superheroic at all. Pretty mundane, really. That's just like what Bob from accounting can do.

 

[Valetudo]

In B/X, a 5th-level magic-user has accumulated 20,000 experience points. His spell slots are 2/2/1. So yes, he can cast fly once per day if he memorizes it. He has ~13 hit points, so he'd better be careful where he flies.

At max level (14th/1,050,000 XP), he can cast 6th-level spells, and there's no contingency or clone or anything like that to bail him out. He's got about 28 hit points now. A 10 HD red dragon will breathe for 45 and claw/claw/bite for 1d8/1d8/4d8. He's also got spell slots, so maybe he casts dispel magic on the hapless M-U.

The Classic D&D magic-user ain't no superhero.

There's really no comparison at all, to the extent I'm surprised folks are trying to make the argument.

I never compared pcs to superheroes. Im saying that these spells are fine and that its the dm thats the problem if he cant handle players using these powers. It doesnt matter how many times a MU can cast a spell or how many exp it takes to get to 5th lvl. Thats actually the point of magic in these games to create a supernatural solution or shortcut. Is it unfair to nuke a group of kolbolds with a fireball? Is it fair that a cleric can speak with dead to find out who killed them? Ecery spell in the game is a shortcut to a solution. If you dont understand that, you shouldnt be the dm and I truely wonder if dnd is the right game for you. #endofrant.

 

[DeJoker]

Careful here.

In some games a large proportion of the general population may have the potential for advancement (i.e. are just like PCs but may or may not have actually ever gained any levels).

Careful, why? Potential is a far cry from actual. For instance a potential explosion does not hurt anyone while an actual one can kill quite a few

Also, we've been talking about Humans only thus far;

Well you may have been but I was not, I was talking about the world in general which includes anything and everything that resides within it.

From the perspective from which we are probably all speaking, yes it does; because here we're speaking as DMs and dungeon designers. It matters not to the average DM how many commoners can fly or teleport (though such things are certainly worth 30 seconds of thought during one's worldbuilding - are there permanent teleport networks between major cities, for example; and if yes then can low-level PCs use them for a fee?) but how many PCs can do such things in the field and at what level and with what frequency.

Even if only 0.01% of the game-world population can hard-cast fly or teleport or dimension door or misty step or whatever, if that 0.01% are all PCs that I have to DM then these things potentially become a front-and-center headache because within the game at the table long-range travel is a simple fact of life.

Lan-"now you see me over here, now you see me over there"-efan

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree -- as I have never in my many, many, years of GMing ever had an issue with folks using funky means of travel. So to me the issue is not the ability itself but the one who cannot seem to handle it within a gaming context. Perhaps your statement should have been a question, as to how some of us actually go about handling this stuff in our worlds. That might have helped you a lot more but it would have also required you to have a much more open mind, as I am seeing (from what I have read thus far) a very closed stance on this issue (it is only a headache) -- thus my current stand of agreeing to disagree. Enjoy but I feel for your players if you are going to choose to remove some coolness factors because you are unwilling to learn how to deal with them in a positive manner rather than a negative one.

 

[Lanefan]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree -- as I have never in my many, many, years of GMing ever had an issue with folks using funky means of travel. So to me the issue is not the ability itself but the one who cannot seem to handle it within a gaming context. Perhaps your statement should have been a question, as to how some of us actually go about handling this stuff in our worlds. That might have helped you a lot more but it would have also required you to have a much more open mind, as I am seeing (from what I have read thus far) a very closed stance on this issue (it is only a headache) -- thus my current stand of agreeing to disagree. Enjoy but I feel for your players if you are going to choose to remove some coolness factors because you are unwilling to learn how to deal with them in a positive manner rather than a negative one.

Either you've mis-read my stance or - far more likely - I haven't been clear enough with it.

For the most part, I don't mind long-range travel in the game until and unless it leads to scry-buff-teleport (SBT) raids taking over from actual adventuring and exploration. Most of the time I haven't had to worry much about SBT because the parties are usually too big for teleport to get them all where they're going. Plane shift (1e version) was more of a problem because it could get a whole party to a known location without risk of failure. But I do like the idea of parties having access to long-range travel outside the adventure as it allows me to put adventures in all sorts of settings and places with a reasonable hope the party can get to the general area without spending months on the road or sea.

I refer to such things as a headache* not from any point of view of the coolness factor for the players (or me as DM running the opponents who can also do such things) but from the point of view of trying to design an adventure or dungeon that doesn't use arbitrary anti-magic or other negation of these effects - I've never been partial to that sort of thing - but can still pose a challenge to a mid-to-high level party with access to them. Obstacles such as a chasm or river aren't obstacles any more if one 'fly' spell and some ferrying can bypass them; a flying invisible scout who can look in every window of the castle before a party approaches makes a huge difference to how that castle might be designed, and so forth.

* - it's a headache for me as a player too, at the moment: in one game I've got a high-level fighter in process of designing and starting to build his stronghold, and trying to figure out how to defend that thing from flying attackers is an absolute pain in the donkey. I've already conceded there's nothing I can do about an SBT attack.

Lanefan

 

[DeJoker]

Either you've mis-read my stance or - far more likely - I haven't been clear enough with it.

Hmm okay that is a slightly different stances than I was reading but perhaps I might have jumbled up a bit of who said what as well so apologize if that be the case.

I guess I never overly concern myself with these "obstacles" that can be easily transgressed I will place them regardless IF the area or situation warrants it -- as if for no other reason than perhaps it outlines why others may not have done anything as of yet. I even created an adventure that gave everyone a means to "fly" because the adventure had everything to do about flying including aerial 3-dimensional combat.

From a player's point of view trying to defend ones castle, *nods* and that is why you will find in many stories set in worlds with magic that certain areas are specifically warded against such intrusion. For instance in the TV Series Supernatural they have a bunker that is completely warded against scrying and teleportation both in and out but the individuals that built the place are long dead having been wiped out by the bad guys a long time back and this treasure filled bunker has state undiscovered for decades until recently. Hmmm now does that sound sort of familiar to certain DnD scenarios

Again they deal with this annoying teleportation thing as well as other various forms of strange movement via magic in plausible ways or at least they seem plausible given all the circumstances.

For instance you do not have to protect the entire castle from SBT just certain areas -- either that or sure you could potentially ward the entire thing -- it most likely be rather expensive on that scale but it could be done. But again personally I never look at it as a "headache" just a challenge and I prefer to approach challenges with a positive mindset because you say you cannot going or carry in a negative attitude your ability to discern a solution is going to be extremely hampered.

 

[MichaelSomething]

A DM has more chasms then a player has fly spells.

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[Lanefan]

Hmm okay that is a slightly different stances than I was reading but perhaps I might have jumbled up a bit of who said what as well so apologize if that be the case.

No worries.

I guess I never overly concern myself with these "obstacles" that can be easily transgressed I will place them regardless IF the area or situation warrants it -- as if for no other reason than perhaps it outlines why others may not have done anything as of yet. I even created an adventure that gave everyone a means to "fly" because the adventure had everything to do about flying including aerial 3-dimensional combat.

The 1e module UK7 Dark Clouds Gather does this. Give it a read sometime if you get the chance.

From a player's point of view trying to defend ones castle, *nods* and that is why you will find in many stories set in worlds with magic that certain areas are specifically warded against such intrusion. For instance in the TV Series Supernatural they have a bunker that is completely warded against scrying and teleportation both in and out but the individuals that built the place are long dead having been wiped out by the bad guys a long time back and this treasure filled bunker has state undiscovered for decades until recently. Hmmm now does that sound sort of familiar to certain DnD scenarios

Again they deal with this annoying teleportation thing as well as other various forms of strange movement via magic in plausible ways or at least they seem plausible given all the circumstances.

Believe me, if I had the resources to make the castle and the surrounding area a no-fly zone I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I don't...

And flocks of gargoyles are a known local threat, though fortunately uncommon. So the main rooftop will be bristling with arbalests and ballistae, it's about the best I can do.

For instance you do not have to protect the entire castle from SBT just certain areas -- either that or sure you could potentially ward the entire thing -- it most likely be rather expensive on that scale but it could be done.

Our game really doesn't have teleportation wards as a common thing, and even if we did I probably coludn't afford any; I'm close to the line financially just in building what I'm building.

Lanefan

 

[Mort]

A DM has more chasms then a player has fly spells.

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DMs need to remember that.

That said, I think the thread has morphed from challenging the player to more of a thematic issue.

In 5e, by third level there's a decent chance that EVERY character in the party can cast. This isn't really a balance issue, so much as a jarring thematic one.

The party rests for the night and the fighter uses mending ' on his broken arrows.

The Rogue, instead of just sneaking past a guard distracts him with minor illusion or dancing lights.

The ranger spamming pass without trace so the party can give elves a run for their money in the stealth department.

This sets a theme of high magic that some DMs aren't comfortable with, don't want.

I've been DMing Ebberron lately so this pervasive low level magic feel is actually perfect - it's a big part of the setting. As such, not only hasn't it been a problem, it's been a big boon.

But my next campaign will likely focus on Greyhawk, I wonder if it won't be a bit much there. Probably not for my group as they are so used to the level of magic. But I can see other groups and DMs having a harder time with the magic level!



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[Tallifer]

Sometimes I just draw arcane symbols on certain walls, doors, floors or ceilings. They prevent (at the Dungeon Master's discretion, no explanation required) awkward shortcuts to obstacles.