Teleport foes over a cliff - Forked Thread: Push+Wall=save

[Nifft]

Does it create an imbalance? No ... just remember that monsters get to push players over cliffs too.

Now teleporting folks 10 squares into the air is a different story and there are rules that keep the movement horizontal.

See, the pushing thing is fine. It's the teleporting thing that's not fine.

I have zero problem with someone teleporting a foe into a position where he can then be pushed off a cliff -- in fact, I think that's awesome, and hope to try it soon. That's because there are rules for pushing people off cliffs. There are no rules for preventing yourself from being teleported into the air or off a cliff.

Worse, allowing teleportation off a cliff but not teleportation into the air in the absence of a cliff encourages PCs to carry a portable cliff (ladder, wooden wall, whatever). It's a stupid thing to encourage; it's a bad mechanic to allow.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Henry]

Rules as Intended? Probably shouldn't be allowed, even with the "recommended precipitous drops by level" chart in the DMG.

Rules as Written? There's nothing against it yet, and it does seem a bit abusive to opponent teleport powers.

Rules as Fun? I say go for it! It's not like people get loads of "teleport your enemy" powers per combat (there are no "at-wills" that let you do it) and the once or thrice you can do it per combat it's cool enough for the DM to let it happen, and watch the elation across the table as your enemy has a "Wile E. Coyote" moment. Remember, there's treasure on that body that they're probably not getting back.

 

[Nifft]

I say go for it! It's not like people get loads of "teleport your enemy" powers per combat (there are no "at-wills" that let you do it) and the once or thrice you can do it per combat it's cool enough for the DM to let it happen

No, because Summons of Khirad.

Once per round, Minor action, until you miss vs. Will = solo killer.

Cheers, -- N

PS: IMHO, the "fun" thing is still there: you can Teleport a foe into a precarious position, and then the strong dude can push him off. Teamwork!

 

[catsclaw227]

I have zero problem with someone teleporting a foe into a position where he can then be pushed off a cliff -- in fact, I think that's awesome, and hope to try it soon. That's because there are rules for pushing people off cliffs. There are no rules for preventing yourself from being teleported into the air or off a cliff.

This is how we decided to rule it. Summons of Khirad makes it too powerful if you can teleport someone over a cliff or a pit of death.

I don't buy that you "occupy" a square the instant before you fall. As others have stated the RAI is more palpable than the RAW. This is why I like 4e's leanings towards "let the DM decide the corner cases" attitude.

 

[Kordeth]

So a character couldn't JUMP off a cliff? Looking at the athletics skill, characters seem to be able to long jump so squares past the cliff are legal squares a non-flier can occupy (just not for long).

Jumping doesn't have the requirement "you must end up in a square you can occupy." Teleporting does.

 

[James McMurray]

Jumping doesn't have the requirement "you must end up in a square you can occupy." Teleporting does.

Why would you be unable to occupy a square in midair? You don't phase out of existence while falling, do you?

 

[Kordeth]

Why would you be unable to occupy a square in midair? You don't phase out of existence while falling, do you?

I never said you wouldn't be. My point was simply that the logic "if you can't teleport into midair because a square in midair can't be occupied, then you can't jump off a cliff" elecgraystone posited is an invalid argument, because jumping does not require that you end in a square you can occupy. Ergo, even if "a square you can occupy" were ruled to exclude squares in midair, there's nothing stopping you from jumping off of a cliff.

Personally, my definition of "a square you can occupy" is "a square that, if you began your turn in, you could also end your turn in," but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

I'm inclined to follow continuity over RAI, given that RAW is ambiguous. If myself or my players can't teleport a foe over a cliff because of 'game balance,' then the suspension of disbelief is broken - and what's a roleplaying game without suspension of disbelief? The BBEG should know better than to be hanging around in terrain with random 'death squares' unless he's got a darn good plan for making sure he doesn't end up in one for ANY reason.

Odd pits, lava squares and whatever for the sake of having them? Never - for this exact reason. Now, if the BBEG has the PCs tied up and is slowly lowering them into a lava pit James Bond-style and in the ensuing fracas, the BBEG gets teleported into his own lava? Poetic justice and totally acceptable. Heck, that may be the only way to kill him OR he's got some enchantment that turns him into a lava elemental or something and then the REAL fight begins! Also perfectly fine if the PCs work extra hard outside of combat to maneuever the BBEG into this sort of terrain. Just don't hand it to them.

 

[Mirtek]

But I wonder if it's legal to use teleportation to place someone over the edge of a cliff.

For example: Fae Locke is standing two squares from the edge of a a cliff. She attempts to use Summons of Khirad to damage and teleport a foe to an unoccupied square within 3 squares of herself. She hits and teleports her foe over the 100' cliff. (or it could be an acid pit or anyplace that will force the foe to 'fall')

Is this legal???

IMO it's intended by RAI and handled by RAW.

To me that's just a standard case of forced movement into dangerous terrain, thus the victim get's a save to fall prone in the last secure square before entering the dangerous terrain.

Since the whole movement of a teleport only consists of two squares (starting square and target square with no inbetween movement), a enemy about to be teleported over a cliff can make a save to fall prone in his current square and this negates the teleport but it prone

I have a much harder time wrapping my head round this one than the rule for saves vs. normal forced movement, simply because a save in that case represents a conscious reaction to danger, and with forced teleportation, the subject doesn't know how much danger they're in until after they teleport.

Since a victim of a power immediately knows everything about the power I would just says that you know your intended destination as soon as the power tries to yank you away

 

[Thaiger]

reading this thread, I was reminded of a power I saw in the FRPG and went digging for it.


Avaunt Foe Coronal Guard Attack 20
You hurl your foe through the dimensions with your attack.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Teleportation, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 5[W] + Intelligence modifier damage, and you teleport
the target 5 squares. The target must end its movement
on a surface that can support it.
Miss: Half damage, and you teleport the target 2 squares.
The target must end its movement on a surface that can
support it.


It's the only teleporting power that I've seen that specifically states that the target must appear on a solid surface.