Tell me about the Swordsage

[Oryan77]

I allowed a player to play as a 5th lvl Swordsage & 2nd lvl Rogue. I'm still getting used to the Swordsage class and learning what all it can do.

I'm wondering if it's too much that the Swordsage gets to gain all of his maneuvers back after each encounter...basically giving him an unlimited amount of "spells" per day. What's the balance between that and a normal caster not gaining spells back each encounter?

Some of these maneuvers can give this PC guaranteed "get ouf of jail free cards" at least 1 time per encounter. For example, being able to use concentration checks as a save result instead of rolling a Fort, Ref, or Will save. This PC has a 16 Concentration check thanks to him gaining access to a +5 Concentration item. His normal Will save is a +6. So he can use a 1st lvl maneuver and basically get an +16 to his will save check instead of a +6. That seems more powerful than any buff spell I can think of for that level. And he can do that every encounter.

I'm also seeing why he wanted a +5 to his Concentration and I'm wondering if me giving it to him was a mistake.

So is the Swordsage a pretty balanced class overall or can it exploit certain campaign styles?

I've only seen it in play for about 3 sessions.

 

[Klaude dOrien]

Swordsage

there aren't any items that boost Concentration in the core rules (or in the Bo9S). I wouldn't allow it (same as I wouldn't allow an Artificer getting an item that boosted UMD)

Bo9S classes definitely look more powerful than the PHB classes on paper. Whether they are balanced for your game will depend on which other books you allow.

reckon they will be more powerful in campaigns with fewer magic items than standard (damage they do is less depndent on magic weapons, ability to use maneuvers to avoid attacks means less dependent on items for defence, diamond mind manuvers mean less dependent on items for saves). they will be less powerful in campaigns that follow the "clear one room then rest for 24 hour" pattern

 

[Mort]

I allowed a player to play as a 5th lvl Swordsage & 2nd lvl Rogue. I'm still getting used to the Swordsage class and learning what all it can do.

I'm wondering if it's too much that the Swordsage gets to gain all of his maneuvers back after each encounter...basically giving him an unlimited amount of "spells" per day. What's the balance between that and a normal caster not gaining spells back each encounter?

Some people like the "per encounter" mechanic some hate it, it's certainly a shift. I haven't found the swordsage's abilities nearly as versatile as spells (with a few exceptions they're only good in combat) and so far the "per encounter" mechanic has not been unbalancing.

Some of these maneuvers can give this PC guaranteed "get ouf of jail free cards" at least 1 time per encounter. For example, being able to use concentration checks as a save result instead of rolling a Fort, Ref, or Will save. This PC has a 16 Concentration check thanks to him gaining access to a +5 Concentration item. His normal Will save is a +6. So he can use a 1st lvl maneuver and basically get an +16 to his will save check instead of a +6. That seems more powerful than any buff spell I can think of for that level. And he can do that every encounter.

While that's true, they are also a significant investment - if the swordsage devotes 3 manuevers to helping his saves, that greatly limits what else he could be doing and the real culprit here is the +5 concentration item (more bellow).

I'm also seeing why he wanted a +5 to his Concentration and I'm wondering if me giving it to him was a mistake.

A big mistake. In addition to the problem with saves, it means he can do +5 to +10 damage on certain strikes as well as other things not anticipated by the rules. I saw a similar exploit when I used a greater ring of jumping with my bloodclaw master (fail a jump check, hardly).

So is the Swordsage a pretty balanced class overall or can it exploit certain campaign styles?

I've only seen it in play for about 3 sessions.

The Bo9S classes add a new dynamic to the game that you have to be prepared for, but they're not any more unbalancing than a well designed cleric, druid or wizard and even the fighter can keep up if splatbooks are applied. The fighter/mage I played could easily outdo a swordsage in almost every aspect (and had enough spells per day to keep up on any normal day).

 

[Arkhandus]

1) Your player exploited your lack of familiarity with the Book of Nine Swords to get a magic item not normally available in the core rules or the Bo9S itself, and that item is now a problem.

2) It would be less of a problem if you throw more than 1 Will-save-effect at the Swordsage per encounter (in any encounters that use spellcasters or wierd/scary monsters, like dragons or mindflayers). Also, if they go many encounters without being forced to make any Will saves, causing them to waste that maneuver readied/known slot much of the time just hoping to exploit it.


3) Keep in mind that they cannot use the Moment of Perfect Mind unless they are able to take action (not flat-footed or stunned) and remember that it uses up their only Swift action for the next round (or the current round if they haven't used any other Swift action this round). A wizard or monster who catches them by surprise and tries to Dominate, Color Spray, or Phantasmal Killer the swordsage will not have to worry about that pesky Moment of Perfect Mind. One other thing about that is that if they use it, they cannot use another such maneuver to boost a different save in the same round or whatnot. Throwing monks at them may help, stunning the swordsage while allied cultists/witches/whatever attempt to mess with the swordsage's mind. Fortitude is a swordsage's weak save.

4) If you suspect the PC may be broken now, it will be worse when he later learns Greater Insightful Strike or Diamond Nightmare Blade (much higher level, though). Insightful Strike is more decent, compared to other maneuvers, and same with Ruby Nightmare Blade and Sapphire Nightmare Blade (they're basically alright).


5) Swordsages aren't so broken in general, they just have a few ways they can be broken, same as any primary spellcasting class can be broken if you really try. Avoid giving items that boost discipline-related skills, such as Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, and suchlike. Unfortunately some such items are already core, like the Ring of Jumping, which can be rather bad with some Tiger Claw maneuvers. You might want to houserule that those maneuvers use only the skill ranks to modify the check (or only skill ranks and ability score modifiers), not all the normal skill modifiers.

Ban or houserule a few maneuvers if you feel it necessary; the ones that change saving throws may need a limit or something, for instance, like 'up to a maximum total save bonus equal to your initiator level', so a 6th-level initiator like your group's twink would be limited to a +6 Will save from Moment of Perfect Mind until they gain more levels. Of course, that would make it a rather worthless maneuver until upper levels, when it would eventually become decent but not that good. You may want to ban or houserule a change to Greater Insightful Strike and Diamond Nightmare Blade, along with certain White Raven maneuvers and feats, but I dunno. Also, don't allow the items from Book of Nine Swords that improve discipline-based abilities, I forget what the items are named or what they do exactly, but they can potentially tip the scale further away from the balance that the rest of the book achieves.

This is assuming you don't want to plan any encounters around the fact that your party's swordsage can usually ace one Will save per encounter.


Anyway...... Maneuvers aren't equivalent to spells. A mid-level caster using Magic Missile is more effective than a mid-level swordsage using Burning Blade. A Fireball is more effective than Death Mark (though potentially less effective at first against one target, until the Fireball accumulates more damage dice at middle caster levels). Needless to say, a Phantasmal Killer, Slay Living, Finger of Death, or Disintegrate is more capable of slaying a foe than a Ruby Nightmare Blade or Greater Insightful Strike.

Martial adepts can do things close to what a spellcaster can, but very little of it is useful outside of combat, and it's still a little bit or moderately less powerful (though a Strike may, potentially, do more damage against one target in some cases than an equal-level spell could, those equal-level spells would be damaging whole groups of enemies at once).

Martial adepts are less effective at fighting groups of enemies than a spellcaster is. And martial adepts are far less effective in ranged combat (often even less effective than a fighter or barbarian in ranged combat, though maybe not by much; a swordsage might be the equal of a bard when it comes to ranged combat, but without any spells to help).

 

[Particle_Man]

Kill the +5 Concentration item.

 

[Nail]

Kill the +5 Concentration item.

Eh. There are other ways to get a good skill check. Removing the item won't remove the problem.

BTW, Oryan, you missed the other juicy bit to Moment of Perfect mind: You can't "auto-fail" on a natural 1, as it's a skill check now. Fun, huh?

In addition, there are several very nice manuevers that use the Concentration check for damage. So twinking out the Concentration skill has lots of benefits. Let the good times roll!

 

[SadisticFishing]

Ring of Jumping isn't so bad, jumping is supposed to be easy to get better at, magically - it only makes sense.

Heh, Thri-Kreen Bloodclaw Masters, FTW.

But, yeah, there's only one Tiger Claw strike that actually gets better the more jump you have, but who's that afraid of a DC60 fort save or stun? ;x

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm wondering if it's too much that the Swordsage gets to gain all of his maneuvers back after each encounter...basically giving him an unlimited amount of "spells" per day.

Not quite, you still don't have more than 14400 rounds a day

More importantly: It depends on the number of encounters you usually have per day (not per game session, but per in-game day!), and how long they usually run:

If you have more than 2-3 encounters per day, or some really big ones, those manoeuvres sure start to look really good. If you have 2-3 encounters with some 3 rounds each, it should be okay.

I don't know about your game, but in our sessions, we rarely have more than one encounter per day, and the swordsages haven't outshone anyone yet.

I'm also seeing why he wanted a +5 to his Concentration and I'm wondering if me giving it to him was a mistake.

Since diamondmind uses it so extensively, that could indeed have been a mistake.

So is the Swordsage a pretty balanced class overall or can it exploit certain campaign styles?

Well, if you run combat-intensive campaigns with several encounters each day, or with big encounters, the swordsage will energizer-bunny like a trooper.

 

[The Souljourner]

The swordsage is fine. He's less powerful than a cleric or druid. The maneuver refresh is not a big deal, because he's not throwing around fireballs. Think of it more like feats he can only use once per combat. It's not like he's casting haste on the party or fly or fireball or teleport....

The +5 concentration item definitely was a mistake. I wouldn't allow it in my campaign regardless of swordsages, because every caster would want it for casting defensively. Take it away and give the player a little talking to for trying to pull the wool over his eyes. He knew what he was asking for and he know you didn't know what it could do.

-Nate

 

[Oryan77]

Thanks guys. The player is also new to the Swordsage class so we're both just seeing how it works in the campaign. From what I've researched, the class overall sounds pretty balanced.

He also wasn't trying to "get away" with having the +5 skill items. I see now that he was twinking/powergaming by asking for the items, but I mean, who wouldn't want that? I just didn't understand the benefits the items gave a Swordsage. I assumed he just wanted to be better at jumping, needed to concentrate the way a caster does (I didn't read the rules thoroughly at the time), and I didn't think about jump & concentration being class skills. So when he said, "roll concentration check instead of will save" I was thinking he'd have a +2 difference (with the magic items)....definitely not a +10 difference.

I blame myself...live & learn. I've realized that I should have been a core DM only. I just don't have the amount of time to bone-up on sourcebooks like my players do. So I'm not aware of what I'll be dealing with in game until it presents itself. That's not a good way to introduce sourcebook material to a campaign

BTW, what would be a good item worth between 5k-6k that I could give for a Swordsage that won't make me regret it?