Templates and OGC

[Paragon Badger]

I was just pondering a humorous d20 project (Book O' Badgers) and a thought hit me. Suppose I take the Water Template ( closed content) and add it to the dire badger (OGC) to produce the Dire Water Badger. Can this be released as OGC?

I mean the template obviously can't be typed up for free, however a monster created with the template should be fair game for OGC, right?

 

[The Sigil]

Orcus will likely be along to correct me but here goes.

I was just pondering a humorous d20 project (Book O' Badgers) and a thought hit me. Suppose I take the Water Template ( closed content) and add it to the dire badger (OGC) to produce the Dire Water Badger. Can this be released as OGC?

My knee-jerk reaction is, "no." In fact, you can't even publish the Dire Water Badger, with template applied, without permission of the copyright owner on the Water Template. You're publishing someone else's closed content - a no-no without their permission.

Simple rule: If you didn't create it, start to finish, you can't turn it into OGC. (The exception is when you have written permission from the copyright holder, of course).

That said, if the Water Template was published under the OGL, even if the publisher says it's "closed" it may in fact be "open" because it is arguably game mechanics - which are *always* open per the terms of the OGL even if the publisher doesn't want them to be.

IOW, it's quite possible the answer to your question is, "the template is OGC by default, therefore your question is meaningless as both the base creature and the template are OGC so clearly the merge can be OGC." But you have to consult your IP lawyer on that one.

I would argue that the actual answer to your question is, "yes" (not the knee-jerk "no") because applying a template is following rules material - which if published under the OGL, makes it automatically OGC. OGC applied to OGC equals OGC.

IANAL, but that's my two bits.

--The Sigil

 

[Drawmack]

If you didn't tell people you were doing that how would they know. Sure they can compare the stats but try and prove in a cour of law that I knew that.

Anyway, you cannot copyright mechanics, you can only copyright the way that you explain the mechanics. This is becuase if you could copyright mechanics Parker Bros. would be the only ones leagally allowed to use a d6. Since stats and attacks are all mechanics they cannot be copyrighted. The one thing that I would be careful about it any special abilities or such. That flavor text could be the reason that it is not listed as OGC. Also I would contact the company, they will probably let you do it.

It is a good rule of thumb to always contact the company that holds the copyrights even if what you want to use is OGC.

 

[Florin]

I would argue that the actual answer to your question is, "yes" (not the knee-jerk "no") because applying a template is following rules material - which if published under the OGL, makes it automatically OGC. OGC applied to OGC equals OGC.

IANAL, but that's my two bits.

--The Sigil

Although, if it was published by Wizards, it's a no-no unless it came from the SRD.

And as for Drawmack, even if no one ever finds out you broke a law, you still broke the law, which he may not be willing to do.

 

[Psion]

Mongoose's EA: Elementalism has its own version of elemental creature templates, you can just use those.

 

[reiella]

From other notable publishers, it appears it's 'ok' to use such a method, as long as you don't give it the name (see the Gith in If Thoughts Could Kill that's just an 'outsider'). I'd still perfer to err on caution though.

 

[Grazzt]

I was just pondering a humorous d20 project (Book O' Badgers) and a thought hit me. Suppose I take the Water Template ( closed content) and add it to the dire badger (OGC) to produce the Dire Water Badger. Can this be released as OGC?

I mean the template obviously can't be typed up for free, however a monster created with the template should be fair game for OGC, right?

Cant do it. Because the template is CLOSED. For example, take any template in the MM2, ELH, or whatever and whip up a monster. If you publish the finished, you are in violation because you are using something WotC has not designated as open or OGC (namely the template you applied to your creature).

For example, the paragon template in the ELH. If you applied that to a troll and then published the paragon troll....you have used content from a source not designated as OGC (or in WotC's case contained in the SRD).

 

[The Sigil]

Everything that has been pointed out is correct - I didn't know the source of the Water Template off the top of my head. If it is from the MM2, you cannot use it period because it was not published under the OGL.

Again, the rule for using WotC-published stuff under the OGL is quite simple... you can use NOT A SINGLE THING WOTC PUBLISHES BECAUSE WOTC DOES NOT PUBLISH UNDER THE OGL.

Exception 1: The System Reference Document (www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html )
Exception 2: The last two creatures in the Monster Manual 2.

That's it. Period. End of discussion. If you wish to publish under the OGL, throw out your Player's Handbook, DMG, and MM. You CANNOT use them. Nothing from Deities and Demigods. Nothing from the Psionic's Handbook. Nothing from Tome & Blood. Nothing from the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Get the idea?

If you buy a WotC book off the shelf, you can use NOTHING in it (except for stuff listed in exception 2 above).

If you buy a book by any other d20/OGL publisher, you could use a template in the fashion I described in my earlier post.

--The Sigil

 

[The Traveler]

Re: Re: Templates and OGC

For example, the paragon template in the ELH. If you applied that to a troll and then published the paragon troll....you have used content from a source not designated as OGC (or in WotC's case contained in the SRD).

Ah, but assume you named the monster "The Troll God's Chosen", and didn't disclose that the method by which the stats were derived was adding the Paragon template to a troll.

I don't think they can actually zap you for the method by which the stats are derived, and when you think about it, it's actually a fairly well-metered way of coming out with balanced monster stats.

Nothing from the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.

But again, conversely, one could create a stronghold using the SBG's rules, and merely state the finished product with total space used and materials costs in a d20 product. Again, as long as one isn't actually publishing the rules, something designed according to those rules shouldn't be able to be zapped by the WotC copyright stormtroopers.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Templates and OGC

Ah, but assume you named the monster "The Troll God's Chosen", and didn't disclose that the method by which the stats were derived was adding the Paragon template to a troll.

I don't think they can actually zap you for the method by which the stats are derived, and when you think about it, it's actually a fairly well-metered way of coming out with balanced monster stats.But again, conversely, one could create a stronghold using the SBG's rules, and merely state the finished product with total space used and materials costs in a d20 product. Again, as long as one isn't actually publishing the rules, something designed according to those rules shouldn't be able to be zapped by the WotC copyright stormtroopers.

If I understand you correctly, you're right. Here's the deal: if you use stats derived from closed work, it's copyright infringement and illegal, but they would have a hard time proving it.