The "Arcane" Swordsage

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is in regards to the Adaptation section of Swordsage, page 20 of ToB. It states you could play a Swordsage as gaining spells as maneuvers by dropping the HD and losing armor proficiencies. This may belong in houserules, but the description of what to do leaves me with a lot of questions, so I need some rules opinions and in some cases how best to houserule.

First off, as per the text, this variant has d6 HD, no armor proficiencies, and is limited to the schools of Evocation, Abjuration, and Transmutation. I'd think direct damage spells from other schools would be ok too, like the Orb spells and Horrid Wilting. Thoughts on that? Now then...

1. Should these spells count as spells, SLA's, Su, or what? I think they should be Su, and able to be cast up close without a problem. The text says to treat them as maneuvers, and all maneuvers are Ex or Su, so why change now? I'll keep this assumption until someone demonstrates why it's a horrible, game-breaking problem. And yes, that means some feats or multiclassing and they're casting in full plate, but this can be discouraged by #2.

2. What happens to the AC bonus? RAW, it's in light armor only, which they now can't use. Should it be changed to light OR no armor? I think I have an idea. Make it apply in no armor only, so that the player is encouraged to go unarmored, but can still multiclass for proficiencies and do so if he wants. Of course, this gives pretty bad AC even with a high stat, so it might not be "encouraging" enough.

3. What casting stat? Swordsage normally uses wisdom, and arcanists normally int or cha. Swordsage seems more closely tied to int of those two, so I guess it'd be Wis or Int. Which should it be? Obviously, this will potentially make AC bonus, Insightful Strikes, etc... Int-based as well.

4. What happens with stances? You just still get them as normal? Trade for extra spells known? Go similar to 4E and use those slots as extra "utility" spells, restricted to ones with durations of hour/level or greater?

5. What happens with Initiator level for multiclassing? Will a Fighter 2 / Arcane Swordsage 8 get 4th level or 5th level spells with that last Swordsage level? Along similar lines, does maneuver replacement remain as-is, or remove the ability to swap up in level?

6. Should the feats for extra spells known/readied be Martial Study (still limited to selecting it a max of 3 times) and Extra Readied Maneuver, or Extra Spell and Extra Slot? I think it should be the former, since there's no reason I can see for Adaptive Style not still working to "recover" all maneuvers.

7. What happens with the entire discipline focus class feature tree? The available spell schools are fewer in number than the normal 6 disciplines.

8. Would it be wrong to offer alternate school packages? I mean, especially if stances are remaining as normal, it'd be cool and perfectly in flavor IMHO to allow someone to get SH stances, Shadow Trickster feat, and have Illusion, Necromancy, and...Enchantment(?) as the schools allowed.

9. How about use of magic items like wands for the schools they have access to? I'd think...
If the maneuvers are Su, No.
If the maneuvers are spells, Yes.
If the maneuvers are SLA's, Maybe.

 

[Teydyn]

Beyond broken.
Whatever they smoked, it was good...

At level 1 you have 4 spells per encounter, compared to a wizards 3 per day. Oh, and between encounters you can cast at will.
And it gets worse.

Oh, and you have better saves, HD and BAB on top of that.


To answer your Questions:
Pick what gives the least bonus on each point, just to reduce your powerlevel a bit.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I suppose that's correct. I was wondering if it'd make the Warlock cry (thought UMD abilities might still even the classes out), and at earliest levels it definitely is too good. Later levels, it seemed comparable to any basic Fighter/Mage build, the Duskblade class, etc... at least at first glance. I didn't really consider level 1 as much as I should have.

The text does say "especially [spells] with a range of touch or personal," which I didn't bother with since it sounded more like a recommendation to the player than a rule and because a regular swordsage has plenty of blasting options. What if spells that weren't range: touch or range: personal counted as +1 spell level?

So at first level...you can run around tumbling in melee with shocking grasp or whatever with your mighty d6 HD and no armor (and no stat to AC till level 2). Is that gimped enough to possibly be balanced? Cause I like the basic concept, it'd be nice to actually make it work.

 

[Starbuck_II]

First off, as per the text, this variant has d6 HD, no armor proficiencies, and is limited to the schools of Evocation, Abjuration, and Transmutation. I'd think direct damage spells from other schools would be ok too, like the Orb spells and Horrid Wilting. Thoughts on that? Now then...

No. That is'nt how it reads.

In General:
You get buffs, touch spells, etc. You only get three schools: Evoc, abjur, and Transmutation.
Spells with touch or personal range emphasis.

All Spells include from my reading:
Evoc:
0th:
Light,
1st:
Shocking Grasp,
2nd:
Darkness,
3rd:
Daylight
4th:
Fire Shield (personal at least)
6th:
Contingency

Trans:
0th:
Mending
1st:
Enlarge Person
Expedious Retreat
Feather Fall
Jump
Mage Weapon
Reduce Person
2nd:
Alter Self
Bear/Bull/Cat/Eagle/Owl's Bonus
Darkvision
Levitate
Spider Climb
3rd:
Blink
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste (at least personal)
Keen Edge
G. Magic Weapon (at least personal)
Water Breathing
4th:
Polymorph
Stone Shape
5th:
Overland Flight
6th:
Flesh to Stone
Stone to Flesh
Tensar's TRansformation
7th:
Etheral Jaunt
Statue
8th:
Iron Body
Temporal Stasis
9th:
Time Stop
Shapechange
Aburation:
0th:
Resistance
1st:
Endure Elements
Protection from X
Shield
2nd:
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy
3rd:
EXplosive Runes
Nondetection
Protection from Energy
Magic Circle
4th:
Globe of invulnerability, lesser
Remove Curse
StoneSkin
Fire Trap
5th:
Break Enchantment
6th:
Globe of invulnerability
Antimagic Field
7th:
Spellturning
Sequester
8th:
Mind Blank
Protection from Spells
9th:
Prismatic Sphere
Imprisonment

1. Should these spells count as spells, SLA's, Su, or what? I think they should be Su, and able to be cast up close without a problem. The text says to treat them as maneuvers, and all maneuvers are Ex or Su, so why change now? I'll keep this assumption until someone demonstrates why it's a horrible, game-breaking problem. And yes, that means some feats or multiclassing and they're casting in full plate, but this can be discouraged by #2.

Supernatural: they are just spcial manuvers since they are per encounter.

3. What casting stat? Swordsage normally uses wisdom, and arcanists normally int or cha. Swordsage seems more closely tied to int of those two, so I guess it'd be Wis or Int. Which should it be? Obviously, this will potentially make AC bonus, Insightful Strikes, etc... Int-based as well.

Wisdom; same armor bonus.

4. What happens with stances? You just still get them as normal? Trade for extra spells known? Go similar to 4E and use those slots as extra "utility" spells, restricted to ones with durations of hour/level or greater?

What is wrong with stances?

5. What happens with Initiator level for multiclassing? Will a Fighter 2 / Arcane Swordsage 8 get 4th level or 5th level spells with that last Swordsage level? Along similar lines, does maneuver replacement remain as-is, or remove the ability to swap up in level?

5th level I'd say.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

There are a few things that should be done to keep this class from being overpowered that wasn't spelled out in the book.

1. don't let the class cast all their boosting spells, then recover to blasting spells, so that they are walking christmas tree cannons. either active spells can't be recovered, or they're like boosts, which usually have a 1 round(ish) duration. use the 'swift' version, if any, of any spell selected.

2. evocation basically = desert wind, so use Wis for save DCs for that school.
abjuration basically = diamond mind, so use Str for save DCs for that school.
transmutation = close to tiger claw, so use Str for save DCs for that school.

3. this isn't a limit though: it doesn't limit you to those 3 schools, it just says they are the most appropriate. several of the desert wind maneuvers are more like conjuration than evocation. there are many spells that look appropriate for this class concept.

4. no handing out boosting spells, even if it says touch, this class is about self boosting. sure, there are a few maneuvers that will help another character, but they are all do some damage + an effect on the target. there's no 'hide your friend' or 'make your friend stronger or tougher' maneuvers, and there shouldn't be any in the arcane swordsage. the crausader, and to a lesser extent, the warblade, are about boosting the party.

This isn't a wizard class, it's a gish with MAD right out of the box.

I like the idea behind this variant, and it looks like a fun class to play, I just haven't found someone who'll let me play one, and I run an Iron Heroes game, so there won't be one of these in my game.

 

[Starbuck_II]

There are a few things that should be done to keep this class from being overpowered that wasn't spelled out in the book.
3. this isn't a limit though: it doesn't limit you to those 3 schools, it just says they are the most appropriate. several of the desert wind maneuvers are more like conjuration than evocation. there are many spells that look appropriate for this class concept.

Limiting them to those three spell schools does keep balance.
Look at the spell list I posted.

At low levels, all you can do is buff (with occasional damage)
Their maybe Polymorph abuse, but that is it.

6th level spells allow flesh to Stone: so that be potentially bad.

9th level:
Imprisonment, Shapechjange, Time Stop, and Prismatic Sphere. These are pretty potent, but eh. He is limited to preparing once of either he chooses(unles he recovers in battle as full round action).

 

[Kmart Kommando]

There are also many spells that aren't appropriate.
The maneuver system balances this by having prerquisites to the better maneuvers. Do the same for the spells they learn.
You're not getting all those good spells in a vacuum.

If you're Shapechanged, you're not recovering that maneuver while it's active, and you're not using any other supernatural abilities you might have, so your options are limited. And how many forms are you going to be familiar with, considering that the Knowledge skills are cross-class, except history. It's only broken if you're allowed to flip through the MMs and pick forms at will. (same as a normal full caster)

The orb spells, normal and lesser, are appropriate, if you only get one, not all variants. No swordsage ability has a range greater than 100ft, and most are 30ft or melee hit. So something like meteor swarm or full fireball probably isn't appropriate.
anything with a duration over 1 round should probably be duration: concentration, up to x rounds (usually 5)