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The Artful Borrower, possibly HORRIBLY unbalanced, help needed
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<blockquote data-quote="Rahkan" data-source="post: 578760" data-attributes="member: 3583"><p>You see, I thought long and hard about balance issues with this class and please let me share my rationale. This class can be taken by a level 6 rogue, and at the 5th level of this class the character will be able to pickpocket just about anyone and anything, disarm people pretty decently, and escape from almost any bindings. But he also gets only 4+int skill points per level.</p><p></p><p>A level 6 rogue / 5 artful borrower has lost +3d6 sneak attack dice, 20 skill points and two special abilities versus a level 11 rogue. Thats pretty steep. The only decent combat related ability he's gained is two feats worth of disarming. Escape bonds is nice but of use only in limited circumstances. Mad Pickpocketing skills are not of use in normal combat, since anything you steal you would have gotten anyway via killing the bastard. They are only useful if the character goes and makes them useful. A level 11 rogue can whup this guy in a fight. Further, those 20 skill points hurt, since a rogue is skill-oriented and in the end the bonuses to Escape Artist and Pickpocket (relatively unused skills) do not make up for really useful skills like Spot, Search, the charisma skills, the strength skills, etc, which may have to be jettisoned for lack of points.</p><p></p><p>Now your Combat Dancer requires +6 BAB, which means that it will usually be taken at 7th level by any fighter. It cannot be taken at 6th level since one must the BAB before taking the level, and the char will not have +6 BAB until after taking the sixth level. The only disadvantage a fighter incurs by taking five levels in your class is losing 3 feats. In return he gains +10 movement, +4 to AC and Attacks (holy crap), +4 to initiative, and the equivalent of Haste for 2-3 rounds per day. +10 movement is certainly one feat, +4 to AC and Attacks. The bonus to AC I can understand, but the bonus to attacks has to increase this guy's effective fighter level by at least two levels. The haste is gravy and can be replicated by no feat. The ability to turn it on at a critical moment will make some battles far easier. The char's dexterity bonus + intelligence bonus + 4 insight bonus to AC must make up for not wearing armor esp. if the money that might have gone into magical armor goes into bracers of protection.The higher initiative is also worth at least one feat. Conclusion, is one feat worth more or less than +4 to attacks (look at Weapon Focus).</p><p></p><p>Conclusion, between a 12th level fighter and a 7th level fighter / 5th level Combat Dancer they have roughly equivalent AC, the latter has much higher attack (even if the former has weapon focus), the latter has higher initiative and the latter can turn on haste. Thus the former will have his arse whupped.</p><p></p><p>These are both fifth level prestige classes, but in terms of balance mine is almost too weak (I would never take it but for roleplaying reasons), while yours is amazingly strong.</p><p></p><p>Why is my class overpowered?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rahkan, post: 578760, member: 3583"] You see, I thought long and hard about balance issues with this class and please let me share my rationale. This class can be taken by a level 6 rogue, and at the 5th level of this class the character will be able to pickpocket just about anyone and anything, disarm people pretty decently, and escape from almost any bindings. But he also gets only 4+int skill points per level. A level 6 rogue / 5 artful borrower has lost +3d6 sneak attack dice, 20 skill points and two special abilities versus a level 11 rogue. Thats pretty steep. The only decent combat related ability he's gained is two feats worth of disarming. Escape bonds is nice but of use only in limited circumstances. Mad Pickpocketing skills are not of use in normal combat, since anything you steal you would have gotten anyway via killing the bastard. They are only useful if the character goes and makes them useful. A level 11 rogue can whup this guy in a fight. Further, those 20 skill points hurt, since a rogue is skill-oriented and in the end the bonuses to Escape Artist and Pickpocket (relatively unused skills) do not make up for really useful skills like Spot, Search, the charisma skills, the strength skills, etc, which may have to be jettisoned for lack of points. Now your Combat Dancer requires +6 BAB, which means that it will usually be taken at 7th level by any fighter. It cannot be taken at 6th level since one must the BAB before taking the level, and the char will not have +6 BAB until after taking the sixth level. The only disadvantage a fighter incurs by taking five levels in your class is losing 3 feats. In return he gains +10 movement, +4 to AC and Attacks (holy crap), +4 to initiative, and the equivalent of Haste for 2-3 rounds per day. +10 movement is certainly one feat, +4 to AC and Attacks. The bonus to AC I can understand, but the bonus to attacks has to increase this guy's effective fighter level by at least two levels. The haste is gravy and can be replicated by no feat. The ability to turn it on at a critical moment will make some battles far easier. The char's dexterity bonus + intelligence bonus + 4 insight bonus to AC must make up for not wearing armor esp. if the money that might have gone into magical armor goes into bracers of protection.The higher initiative is also worth at least one feat. Conclusion, is one feat worth more or less than +4 to attacks (look at Weapon Focus). Conclusion, between a 12th level fighter and a 7th level fighter / 5th level Combat Dancer they have roughly equivalent AC, the latter has much higher attack (even if the former has weapon focus), the latter has higher initiative and the latter can turn on haste. Thus the former will have his arse whupped. These are both fifth level prestige classes, but in terms of balance mine is almost too weak (I would never take it but for roleplaying reasons), while yours is amazingly strong. Why is my class overpowered? [/QUOTE]
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