The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Hussar

Legend
I was going to say. If Shakespeare wasn’t on the required reading list of most high schools in English speaking countries, about the same number of people would read him as read “The Faerie Queen”.

I mean seriously. How many other five hundred year old authors do you think your buddy in a bar could name?

How many have read Marlowe? Or Dante?
 

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Ratskinner

Adventurer
Haven't read the whole thread cause golly, but honestly....meh. This kind of thing is part of his schtick. I even kinda like and agree with Maher on a lot of things. But he's not an expert or really qualified to offer any profound opinions on....well anything, AFAICT. Even his takes that I agree with are pretty shallow.

I know people are quoting CS Lewis a lot, but I almost think this John Rogers quote is more fitting:

[QUOTE="John Rogers]There are two novels that can change a bookish 14-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.[/QUOTE]
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Pulitzer, Hugo, Newbery, Caldecott, Michael L. Printz, Coretta Scott King and Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights boards have all granted literary awards to comics and graphic novels. Which begs the question: are THEY the equivalent of Iowans who think that Des Moines is a cosmopolitan, hip city?

Was it a literary award for best art?
 

pemerton

Legend
I recently re-read The Eagle of the Ninth, a historical novel written by Rosemary Sutcliff in 1954. I discovered it at my elementary school library in 1979. And it's far more mature and sophisticated in its diction and story than the Harry Potter books, or anything else I've seen at my kids' school libraries. And Sutcliff wasn't an obscure writer in her day - she won an OBE for her contributions to children's literature. I also read Watership Down, a Wizard of Earthsea, and Lord of the Rings when I was nine.
I'm glad to see that someone else remembers Rosemary Sutcliff. And for what it's worth, I would put the literary merit of Wizard of Earthsea well above Harry Potter.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's not like Dickens or Shakespeare were writing for adults anyway at the time. They were the Marvel Universe writers of their day. Pop culture works meant to be consumed by the masses. What's the difference?
I find Dickens (and other authors of the same general period) a bit convoluted in their style. And there can be a tendency to melodrama. But I've read a lot of Stan Lee and Stan Lee-inspired comics, and not too many of them are going to stand up against Great Expectations.

(I'm not sure why you contrast "adults" and "masses" - the masses for whom Dickens wrote were primarily adults, I think, although given the demographic profile of that time and place probably younger than a contemporary British adult demographic profile.)
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Was it a literary award for best art?

Some of those may gave been- the Caldecott is is an award for illustrators of children’s books, but some illustors also write their own stories- but definitely not all. The Newberry, for instance, is a purely literary award.

In fact, those are two of the biggest awards children’s lit can receive.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
And did Stan Lee win any of those awards?

Those? No.

But he did win a National Medal of Arts in 2008- the highest honor given to artists and arts patrons by the United States government- for his contributions to American culture as a writer and editor.

https://www.arts.gov/honors/medals/stan-lee

That puts him the company of writers like:
Maya Angelou
Ralph Ellison
Eudora Welty
Saul Bellow
 
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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Those? No.

But he did win a National Medal of Arts in 2008- the highest honor given to artists and arts patrons by the United States government- for his contributions to American culture as a writer and editor.

https://www.arts.gov/honors/medals/stan-lee

So then how can we accept the conparison of Stan Lee with the great writers of history? It would be like comparing Bill Gates with Newton, Einstein and Hawking because he has a honorary degree.
 

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