D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

[MwaO]

Well, lets use 1e as a model, but B/X would also work fine. The thief skills are only applicable to EXTRAORDINARY situations, that is where you wouldn't normally be expected to be able to do something.

That's not actually how Thieves in AD&D or for that matter AD&D exploration works. You just described exactly what I said happened all the time - the DM defined some way that the PCs could be undetected when the rules didn't actually support it.

Normally, you're moving quietly, you could be heard at up to 30' away. If you were in metal armor, 90'. A Thief's ability was to potentially not be heard at all and with extremely poor odds of success.

i.e. DMs defined a set of house rules allowing for 'smart exploration' and then players did it. Or in some cases, the players had to figure out what the rules were and death would happen until they did.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's not actually how Thieves in AD&D or for that matter AD&D exploration works. You just described exactly what I said happened all the time - the DM defined some way that the PCs could be undetected when the rules didn't actually support it.

Normally, you're moving quietly, you could be heard at up to 30' away. If you were in metal armor, 90'. A Thief's ability was to potentially not be heard at all and with extremely poor odds of success.

i.e. DMs defined a set of house rules allowing for 'smart exploration' and then players did it. Or in some cases, the players had to figure out what the rules were and death would happen until they did.

OK, as a guy who ran 1e and then 2e during their entire times as the principle versions of D&D, so 20+ years, I don't know of this 'rule' that you are citing. I went back to the 1e PHB and the 1e DMG out of curiosity, and indeed no such statement exists in either one. Its entirely up to the DM what 'making noise' means. DMG p62, under surprise, Distance: paragraph 2 Noise:. It just states that if one party is "making considerable noise" then the other party can either flee or conceal itself (no mechanics given for this, presumably it hinges on there being some viable concealment).

In general AD&D doesn't have specific hard and fast rules for silent movement, noise, and concealment. Thieves have specific rules, but if you peruse them they're meant to apply to extraordinary situations. Moving Silently for instance is described as the ability to move quietly even across a a squeaky wooden floor. Hiding in Shadows means being able to remain observed by remaining motionless when in sight. No one can normally remain unobserved when in sight, but a thief can. No one can normally cross a squeaky wooden floor, but a thief can. Normal people can't Pick Pockets AT ALL, but a thief can. This is all less explicit than in OD&D, but still true, and quite clearly was the intent when the thief rules were created.

So, it was assumed that adventurers were competent and they could sneak around, as long as they were sneaking around on hard floors in the dark and making sure to be quiet and out of sight. A thief could actually hide in line of sight of a bad guy, though he still needed SOME sort of 'shadows' to do this (IE he can't stand next to you and be invisible with this skill) and he couldn't HIDE while you were watching. Likewise he could move over broken glass and not make noise, with some luck.

Of course what you have to understand is that the monsters have the same basic competencies. A bunch of goblins can quite literally walk up to the edge of the party's torch light and WILL NOT be detected, assuming no measures were taken (and this is why spells like Alarm are so useful). In that case the DM will apply the factors in the section on surprise and encounter distance to determine exactly how close the goblins actually get (or the party if its going the other way). DMG 62 provides the rules for this, encounter distance will be d6+4 inches (IE 50 to 100 feet). If one group is surprised, then the distance becomes 10-30 feet (1-3 inches). Assuming a party with torches and some goblins then the goblins cannot be surprised, they can see the party's torch light. The party can't see them unless they are within 4" (the limit of torch light). This means the goblins could get surprise, the party cannot. Assuming they do, then the encounter will start at 40 feet, otherwise at 50 to 100 feet or the limit of terrain (IE it can't be more than the available distance in the location where the encounter happens basically). Presumably at that point the goblins announce their presence in some way, and then each side rolls for initiative.

You can see how in this system scouting is quite effective, and while a thief is going to have somewhat of an edge on this in some sense, he's not actually grossly better at it than anyone else. Anyone can advance quietly under favorable circumstances. A ranger is actually the best, as they have bonuses related to surprise, though elves have a similar ability (its not clear that an elf ranger has any added advantage here, but I don't think there's any way in 1e to actually be a PC elf ranger).

The upshot of this is the DM has a couple of 'levers' to use to decide just how effective the party can be in a given situation in terms of scouting and otherwise maintaining control of the situation, but they do generally have the ability to do so, gated by the prevalence of infravision amongst monsters, which tends to make it tougher. Still, unless the DM is really trying to be a dick and thwart all attempts at skilled play, the players should have a pretty good chance of avoiding melees, but they will still get into some. Hirelings are the next line of defense of course. A wall of light infantry at the front of the party is fairly cheap and USUALLY means that the PCs can survive most of the crazy ganktastic encounters.

 

[MwaO]

OK, as a guy who ran 1e and then 2e during their entire times as the principle versions of D&D, so 20+ years, I don't know of this 'rule' that you are citing. I went back to the 1e PHB and the 1e DMG out of curiosity, and indeed no such statement exists in either one.

Page 68, 2nd column. Gives guidelines for detecting noise. There are reasons why people who have played as long as you have tended to disdain Thieves. Because as written, their abilities were kind of useless until higher levels.

In general AD&D doesn't have specific hard and fast rules for silent movement, noise, and concealment. Thieves have specific rules, but if you peruse them they're meant to apply to extraordinary situations. Moving Silently for instance is described as the ability to move quietly even across a a squeaky wooden floor. Hiding in Shadows means being able to remain observed by remaining motionless when in sight.

You're not remaining motionless when in sight. You're in shadow, not moving, and then someone who didn't see you hide comes into a point where they could in theory see you. Ditto for moving silently - as the note above, normally someone can hear a person moving quietly within 30'. Thief makes that potentially 0.

This is not extraordinary type of stuff, just hey, "I have slightly better options, even on squeaky floors." until much higher levels.

So, it was assumed that adventurers were competent and they could sneak around, as long as they were sneaking around on hard floors in the dark and making sure to be quiet and out of sight.

A lot of people made all kinds of assumptions about what adventurers could do. But what you're describing neither was in the rules nor was it common in my area in 1980.

 

[Garthanos]

A lot of people made all kinds of assumptions about what adventurers could do. But what you're describing neither was in the rules nor was it common in my area in 1980.

A lot made huge assumptions about what they couldnt do.... which inspired the following

"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Page 68, 2nd column. Gives guidelines for detecting noise. There are reasons why people who have played as long as you have tended to disdain Thieves. Because as written, their abilities were kind of useless until higher levels.

Well, this is the problem with talking about 1e, because there's no really coherent SYSTEM of rules. There's a rules system for encounter distance, one for surprise (which is integrated with the distance one), one for pursuit and evasion, a set of 'thief abilities', etc. NONE of these are written in common terms and there's no explanation of if or how the various elements of them might apply to each other, and they each make a number of statements and assumptions. So its not AT ALL correct for you to be telling me that I'm wrong about some sort of rules 'as written'. You, nor I, have any idea if Gygax intended (or even THOUGHT ABOUT) whether p68 applies to characters sneaking around.

In any case, my analysis of this is that its a discussion of the distances at which you can detect (and thus track) a FLEEING party, not one trying to be quiet except as noted under noise. And note that this 'relatively quiet movement' IS pretty stealthy, you get no chance to detect it beyond 30', which is a pretty short distance. Recall above that encounter distances underground are 50-100 feet, or 40' in case one party is surprised by the other. This means by p68 a quietly moving party can reach encounter distance before being detected, no checks required (though they would have to achieve surprise, or terrain would have to favor them, which are not guaranteed). In any case, by being properly tactical you can certainly scout effectively. Of course a thief will have added options, though a ranger will actually be FAR better (since he can achieve surprise most of the time, so he will effectively ALWAYS get within 40' unless there's some mitigating circumstance without being detected).

You're not remaining motionless when in sight. You're in shadow, not moving, and then someone who didn't see you hide comes into a point where they could in theory see you.

Yes, that's correct, you can't Hide in Shadows WHILE being observed, though again what I've stated before should allow for you to get within as little as 40' of an opponent without being observed, and then hide, at which point you ARE 'in shadow' and can't be seen, period, assuming you pass your check. There is no actual rule about where shadows are or aren't, so presumably under dungeon lighting conditions you're pretty much set. If someone drops a continual light on your location, well, maybe that's different, but the rules don't actually address what you do then.

Ditto for moving silently - as the note above, normally someone can hear a person moving quietly within 30'. Thief makes that potentially 0.

Yes, a thief makes that potentially 0. Nobody is arguing thieves don't have some extraordinary ability, but its not quite what you are making it out to be. Its really the situations where nobody else could TRY that thieves get to do their thing.

This is not extraordinary type of stuff, just hey, "I have slightly better options, even on squeaky floors." until much higher levels.

Well, the sheer unreliability of thief skills is a whole other topic. I think games like 4e have advanced FAR FAR BEYOND the days of 1e and this is where it really shows.

A lot of people made all kinds of assumptions about what adventurers could do. But what you're describing neither was in the rules nor was it common in my area in 1980.

I can't speak for what was in your area. I have already spoken for what was in the rule books. Its very well known to all that 1e is open to a wide range of interpretations and easy misinterpretations. I've given you the stock interpretation, such as it is. My character can move relatively quietly and expect not to be heard more than 30' away! I don't think you can argue that. Likewise if a character is in an area where enemies cannot see, then they won't see him, period. This is just common sense and isn't even stated as a rule, except in the sense that all creatures and light sources have rules defining how much they can see, and we can assume that people can figure that out in ordinary outdoor settings without rules. 'nuff said on that.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

When Old Geezer used to post on RPG.net - aka Mike Mornard, one of Gary's original players - he mentioned a few times in response to questions that thieves' skills as run by Gygax were supposed to essentially automatically work and the percentage change only came into play in extreme circumstances.

Of course, it was too much to ask for Gygax to actually write that in the rules so we ended up with four editions (OD&D, B/X, 1E, and 2E) where thieves basically sucked until they were high enough level to be totally overshadowed by everyone else anyway.

The best thing about 4E? In a nutshell: It wasn't written by Gygax. Three cheers for clarity, cogency, and coherency!

 

[JeffB]

When Old Geezer used to post on RPG.net - aka Mike Mornard, one of Gary's original players - he mentioned a few times in response to questions that thieves' skills as run by Gygax were supposed to essentially automatically work and the percentage change only came into play in extreme circumstances.

Of course, it was too much to ask for Gygax to actually write that in the rules so we ended up with four editions (OD&D, B/X, 1E, and 2E) where thieves basically sucked until they were high enough level to be totally overshadowed by everyone else anyway.

The best thing about 4E? In a nutshell: It wasn't written by Gygax. Three cheers for clarity, cogency, and coherency!

If it were not for Gary, none of us would be here talking about what we like about 4th or any other edition.

Disrespectful.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

If it were not for Gary, none of us would be here talking about what we like about 4th or any other edition.

Disrespectful.

Of course, full credit to him for synthesising the ideas of several others, mixing it with his own, and then having the courage to take that product - lightning caught in a bottle, if you will - to market. That took genuine chutzpah.

But clarity, cogency, and coherency were never part of his skill set; that initial entrepreneurial courage was.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

When Old Geezer used to post on RPG.net - aka Mike Mornard, one of Gary's original players - he mentioned a few times in response to questions that thieves' skills as run by Gygax were supposed to essentially automatically work and the percentage change only came into play in extreme circumstances.

Of course, it was too much to ask for Gygax to actually write that in the rules so we ended up with four editions (OD&D, B/X, 1E, and 2E) where thieves basically sucked until they were high enough level to be totally overshadowed by everyone else anyway.

The best thing about 4E? In a nutshell: It wasn't written by Gygax. Three cheers for clarity, cogency, and coherency!

Well, looking at Greyhawk, I must admit that there's no explicit indication of how these abilities are to be used. MANY people have argued Mike's position, which I believe is implicit in 1e's rules at least, but based on the original text there's really very little to go on. There is in fact almost no description of thieves and thief abilities in Greyhawk at all, just a couple tables and some notes. The main description literally has one sentence per ability! Obviously we must accept Mike's assertion however, unless someone else who played in the original Greyhawk is here to say different.

Gygax was definitely an idiosyncratic writer. He produced a lot of text in the DMG, and PHB, and yet elucidated little in terms of a coherent rules process. There's a lot of material that shows how he built a campaign. I don't think he cared that much for rules. Even later when he expounded that AD&D was intended to provide 'the way' for things D&D to be done, it didn't seem like he really meant it, not in the sense that we would take such a statement today at least.

 

[MwaO]

My character can move relatively quietly and expect not to be heard more than 30' away! I don't think you can argue that.

Unless you're in metal armor, which was my initial point. Who can be heard 90' away and outside typical encounter distances. Most parties had someone in metal armor.

And Hide In Shadows didn't actually work against most monsters in any case, because they had Infravision.