The break-down in believability at higher levels of play

[WizarDru]

Ah, the classic 'how can high-level D&D handle verisimilitude?' question.

There are lots of approaches to this discussion and lots of answers. There is no single correct one, owing in large part to the fact that there are multiple play-styles and campaign designs. Some answers are simply better for some than others.

There is the 'why doesn't the BBEG just wipe out the heroes when they're 3rd level' question. There is the 'what stops the players from doing X?' question. There is the 'how come the players always manage to encounter a challenge they can reasonably beat?' conundrum.

And the fact that, depending on the game, all or none of these may be true. In the case of my current game, the heroes are part of an elite guard who hunts down monsters for the king. There will come a day when they are more powerful than any other member of their guard. But they may still take orders from weaker members. Why? Many possible reasons: it's in-character; they respect their commanders; level does not equal command skill, resources or social standing; they are Good.

On the other hand, as FireLance mentions, it's quite possible they WILL do start doing these things. And the DM should be prepared to answer let them or deal with figuring out why they would not. Take a look, for example, at Piratecat's 'Defenders of Daybreak' campaign or Sepulchrave's story hour. Here you have players playing Kingmaker and rewriting whole religions for the Greater Good. And why not? They were EPIC characters. In my 3E game that went Epic, the heroes challenged the very elemental essence of Chaos itself and they were demi-gods themselves, at that point (literally, in two cases).

There can be plenty of in-game reasons for the answers to the OP's questions...the real discussion is whether or not it matters.

 

[Goblyn]

For our high-level(just hit 33) game, the BBEG doesn't kill us when we're still weak because we're working for him. Really, the only reason that he will be the BBEG is because the party plans to take him out when we decide we're ready.

The high-level characters encounter things on par with their power level because they go looking for it. Plane-hopping, space travel. Other than the emporer(the PCs' boss), I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the world any one of us couldn't steamroll in a single round.

So, yeah. As far as the campaign world goes, this huge stuff was always out there, and when the PCs were ready, they went looking for it.

 

[Reynard]

For our high-level(just hit 33) game, the BBEG doesn't kill us when we're still weak because we're working for him. Really, the only reason that he will be the BBEG is because the party plans to take him out when we decide we're ready.

The high-level characters encounter things on par with their power level because they go looking for it. Plane-hopping, space travel. Other than the emporer(the PCs' boss), I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the world any one of us couldn't steamroll in a single round.

So, yeah. As far as the campaign world goes, this huge stuff was always out there, and when the PCs were ready, they went looking for it.

There are forces in the world that would just love to use these godlings for their own purposes, no? Sometimes, an enemy doesn't have to be able to go toe to toe to be a threat. Some lich or dark lord who the PCs could handily defeat might still be able to trick them into going after a rival or otherwise upsetting the balance of things.

I mean, if you want to rule/destroy the world, what better way to go about it than to have the heroes do the dirty work for you?

 

[Filcher]

Why doesn't the BBEG just wipe us out when we're 3rd level?

I always thought he was farming us for XP. We give better drops at higher levels.

 

[jdeleski]

For our high-level(just hit 33) game, the BBEG doesn't kill us when we're still weak because we're working for him. Really, the only reason that he will be the BBEG is because the party plans to take him out when we decide we're ready.

...

So, yeah. As far as the campaign world goes, this huge stuff was always out there, and when the PCs were ready, they went looking for it.

This is true for my player's campaign. The BBEG is sponsoring my players, supplying them with supplies and healing potions, interceding with the town's law for them, and introducing them to the political powers in town. They are under the impression that the BBEG is good, however, so they don't yet know that the BBEG is the BBEG. I've been dropping hints and clues as to the BBEG's nefarious activities, though, and I'm sure that they'll soon figure things out; we are nearing the time for the "big reveal" in the campaign where they'll confront their sponsor.

But when the players defeat the BBEG, they'll find that the BBEG was working for an even Bigger-BEG, the demi-god/demonic presence who has been too busy with its own high-level challenges to even notice the PC's.

J.

 

[evildmguy]

Lots of thoughts on this.

In my current weekly campaign, I didn't wait until high levels to introduce potential bad guys. I have a group that wanted to play unaligned. Okay, I went with it. I then introduced and showed them the really bad evil things that are doing bad things. (Beholder and a lich to name but a few. I have a LOT of threads going on.) What stopped them was probably a bit meta game but they know they can't touch the lich or beholder. So, they are biding their time, gathering their resources and I can see them going after them eventually. What I am also hoping to do is show that being unaligned doesn't work and they will have to pick a side. ("I don't care what you believe in as long as you believe.") They are able to go against some things and they have taken out some high placed bad guys but they know they are far from over.

In another campaign, I told them at lower levels that the writings they found was Netherese (the FR big powerful magic kingdom of the past), and so they probably figured it was a lich or student of Netheril that was the bad guy. However, as the characters got more experience, I told them that what they thought was Netherese was someone faking it who had an imperfect understanding of Netherese. They figured it out as they looked back on it and read it again and then they started to see the fakes easier. However, at no time in the low level period did I even hint that it wasn't Netherese. It wasn't until they were more experienced that this was something they would see.

I do fight with the time frame as well. Knowing that it takes lots of time to be an expert at something, I don't like it when a game year goes by and they went up fifteen levels. I try and have down time and other time past, including skipping winter if I can as it's too cold for most of it, but usually have to let this slip and suspend my disbelief on it.

As for metagame reasons, this is going to happen due to the rules of DND. I don't know pathfinder, but DND from 3.5 to earlier played differently at different levels. 4E is a bit more even, but higher levels are obviously more powerful. In contrast, Alternity or Exalted or WoD are not going to have that kind of issue because they are skill based, not level based. In fact, after playing Alternity for almost a year, while they had improved because the players didn't see that instant improvement that a level gives, it was tough for them to realize how much more powerful they were. Because also in those games, is the idea that a new character could get lucky and take out an experienced characters. It's not probable but it's possible. My players didn't like the slow progression, and to some extent I didn't either, but it did help with the timeframe, at least.

As for other coments:

I think the BBEG doesn't wipe them out at 3rd level because she doesn't notice them. Or, put another way, they don't stand out from any other 3rd level adventuring party. So, why would she bother? It's not until they get within striking distance of her, which can be up to three or four levels lower of the BBEG, that she notices the threat and reacts to it. Hopefully too late!

I also definitely have the BBEGs used to clear out other obstacles. But, I make it palatable because they are still fighting evil. One evil group is using the PCs to take out their rival, another evil group. The PCs are fine with it at the moment because they still take out an evil group! And when done with one, they can go back for the other and they are now more powerful!

I'm also open to the idea of the PCs wanting to take over. In fact, they have said they want power because they think they are the most responsible with it! I'm trying to show them evil acts the bad guys do, so they will be good about it, but if that's what they want to do, that's fine with me.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

There is a couple things I do to handle these issues:

1. The PCs start in an area where the biggest threats are things that Heroic Tier heroes can handle, but as the campaign progresses, they migrate to other locales. They could know and/or hear stories about the dangers elsewhere, but they don't get there until much later. Their home-base "upgrades" from a village (handling the problems villages have) to a small city (more powerful problems, as the city itself can handle the small stuff) to a large metropolis (more powerful still) to a planar city (epic level stuff).

2. The Big Bads are felt from the get-go. The PCs may start in a town ruled by a Big Bad (or THE Big Bad), but are only powerful enough to help out in small ways. As they get powerful enough to be of concern to the rulers (but not powerful enough take them on), they either leave (to return later) or are "co-opted" by the Big Bad (to take on other Big Bads who are also rivals/enemies of THEIR Big Bad). I've had the PCs confront a red dragon (far over their heads), but the dragon spared them if they would do work that is "beneath him." I like having warring bad guy factions, even if they are supposed to be on the same side (A sadistic bastard and an honorable black knight type both working for the same king, for example)

If the world seems totally devoid of those Big Bads until the PCs are powerful enough to handle them, it is a problem on the DM side. (Although, it could be worked in to the narrative, if it is set in a more real-world-esque setting and all the weird stuff the PCs and villains do are behind the scenes)

 

[Dice4Hire]

I do think that the DM has to take high level play into account at world creation, if they intend to get that high. If the game is gonna top out at 10th or so, then the world is a lot different than one that is for epic play. In fat, some worlds, like Planescape, really do not work at the lower levels at all.