The Call of the World Builder

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

2KM:
Reading your last post mentioning the "Adventure Seeds" from the later MMs, thinking of the "Ecology of..." articles and the World & Monsters, I think there is a reasonable hope that the MM will not just contain "XP Bags" but also some fluff to inspire monsters.

The designers did put some effort and creating the "Implied Setting" of 4E, and after I read the R&C and the W&M, I felt there were a lot of interesting stuff in there that made me want to use. That never happened in this magnitude with the implied setting of the 3E PHB.

It is certainly possible, but unlikely that all the effort the story team spend will go lost. I think there is plenty of room for side bars throughout the core rule books (including the MM). (Especially considering that the Phane stat-block seems to fit into a single column, and each (unique) monster is supposed to have an at least an entire page, right?


And if I am wrong and you buy the 4E MM and are disappointed, the maniac cackling you'll here will not be me enjoying the satisfaction of luring an innocent D&D fan into the perils of 4E, I promise. Hahaha... err... look behind you... *runs away*)

 

[LostSoul]

Right. What does that mean when I sit down and play the game? Why should I use a succubus?

Because you think they are cool. Or you want a story about women who manipulate men with sex, or men who are governed by their passions, or something along those lines.

Again, what does that mean when I sit down to play the game? What is the phane trying to do?

Sow chaos? I don't know what that means, it's weak (that's why I think the phane is stupid). But you could use the phane as a representation of the troubles that are caused when people do <insert whatever you think is wrong with people here>, and the chaos that is caused by it.

In my example, what the phane wants isn't really important. He's a MacGuffin; he's there to set the plot in motion. The real question is what the human he first dealt with wants. I would do something like having the phane help the human fight against an orc uprising.

The thing is, 1. nothing in the phane's entry tells me it can go back in time. 2. Nothing in the phane's entry tells me that it cares about political dynasties. 3. Nothing in the phane's entry tells me where to use skill challenges to uncover its plot.

1. The phane "can manipulate time." That's good enough for me.
2. Seriously? If an entry doesn't say "I also like to ruin kingdoms for sport", the creature doesn't do that? Anyways, "sow chaos among mortals" suggests a political agenda to me.
3. Nothing in the phane's entry tells you where to use combat, either, but you still know how to do it. That will be covered in the skill challenges section of the DMG. I'm not sure what you would want it to say.

That's all stuff I would have to create, doing the hard grunt work of it from scratch.

I don't call what I did in the post you replied to "hard grunt work".

 

[katahn]

I think the Monster Manual should contain some fluff. Not to the amount of "Ecology of..." articles (I want a little more then 30 Monsters in a 200+ page book ), but they should contain fluff. What I don't like is if the fluff is deeply integrated into the mechanics. I am okay with mechanics getting "fluffy" names, but monster abilities requiring me to use the full implied setting or heavy house-ruling to remove it reduce their usefulness. There is a range where this acceptable - I like the idea of Hobgoblins as soldier monsters or Gnolls as pack monsters. This works fine. If I ever need a soldier monster, I can look to the Hobgoblin and use that one. But I don't like being required to use their cities and nations, or their gods.
Vampires (in 3E) for example seem overloaded with special rules, and still don't cover all the variants I'd like.
Dragons and their requisite spellcasting also seemed way to much.

The question is "how much fluff"? So far from what I've seen of the 4e monster entries I'd say they have about as much as I'd want from a monster manual. I'd be a lot happier leaving the majority of 'fluff' to articles in DDI or my own feverish imagination. The less that's "set in stone" in the book the better and for exactly the reasons you hint at with not wanting to feel like you're required to use their cities, nations, or gods.

The Shadows ability to spawn is a very awkward type of mechanics, since if taken at face value, Shadows would overrun the world. It you only put this ability in the fluff, you never run into that problem. Each DM can decide on its own, and until the PCs have researched the information for the campaign, shadows and shadow creation/spawning is a mystery and can create suspense...

I agree completely here and this is a perfect example of the kind of detail that really doesn't need to be in the MM.

So far I agree with KM that the monster fluff from the excerpt wasn't that great. I am not sure if we have seen the full monster fluff, but if that's it, there probably should be some more. On the other hand, if I really get a handful of monsters on every level of 4E, maybe the loss of fluff is worth it. Not having to create stat-blocks is a big seller to me, after having created countless of these in my 3E campaigns.

Creating fluff, as I see it, is essentially storytelling and that is the entire point of what I enjoy in being a DM. The more of the story that gets told for me and the less I feel like a storyteller and the more I feel like a narrator or a substitute for whatever computer architecture might be running someone's MMO of choice with the decisions and fun bits already decided and me reduced to rolling dice for the monsters.

 

[Professor Phobos]

Creating fluff, as I see it, is essentially storytelling and that is the entire point of what I enjoy in being a DM. The more of the story that gets told for me and the less I feel like a storyteller and the more I feel like a narrator or a substitute for whatever computer architecture might be running someone's MMO of choice with the decisions and fun bits already decided and me reduced to rolling dice for the monsters.

Exactly. Presumably my players have brought me in to DM because they want me to DM, not merely adjudicate the mathematics for them.

 

[Voadam]

The Shadows ability to spawn is a very awkward type of mechanics, since if taken at face value, Shadows would overrun the world. It you only put this ability in the fluff, you never run into that problem. Each DM can decide on its own, and until the PCs have researched the information for the campaign, shadows and shadow creation/spawning is a mystery and can create suspense...

Huh?


If it is in the fluff "These creatures are greatly feared because those they drain are instantly transformed into similar undead spirits under the control of their killer, and their bodies are lost forever in the transformation beyond even the reach of divine life returning magic." but not the mechanics then you have situations where it should come up from the fluff, but doesn't happen mechanically in the game. Such as when a PC or NPC dies from fighting one.

Instant spawning is something you want mechanically defined before you use the monster because it has such an impact on the game at the table.

Whether a PC taken out by one no longer has a body that can be raised is important to know when using them directly in the game.

When one is unleashed on a village it is important for the DM to know whether this turns the village into an undead horde immediately or not.

The problem is the out of control spawning, not the fact that it is mechanically described. A fix is to simply change the mechanics so there is no spawning, or they rise as written only under certain conditions (in a negative energy infused curse zone), or are bound to a certain radius from where they spawn, etc. You need to alter both the fluff and the mechanics to fix the problem.

 

[Pinotage]

I'm rapidly concluding that 3e and 4e are not such different beasties as I thought they were. They just approach the same thing from a different perspective, but are equally capable at what they do. The end result is the same - it's just a slightly different journey.

Pinotage

 

[katahn]

Huh?


If it is in the fluff "These creatures are greatly feared because those they drain are instantly transformed into similar undead spirits under the control of their killer, and their bodies are lost forever in the transformation beyond even the reach of divine life returning magic." but not the mechanics then you have situations where it should come up from the fluff, but doesn't happen mechanically in the game. Such as when a PC or NPC dies from fighting one.

Instant spawning is something you want mechanically defined before you use the monster because it has such an impact on the game at the table.

Whether a PC taken out by one no longer has a body that can be raised is important to know when using them directly in the game.

When one is unleashed on a village it is important for the DM to know whether this turns the village into an undead horde immediately or not.

The problem is the out of control spawning, not the fact that it is mechanically described. A fix is to simply change the mechanics so there is no spawning, or they rise as written only under certain conditions (in a negative energy infused curse zone), or are bound to a certain radius from where they spawn, etc. You need to alter both the fluff and the mechanics to fix the problem.

It sounds like you've solved your own problem... houserule it. I'd assume that shadow minions cannot make new minions, only those who willingly embrace the shadows can and other lords won't make too many more of themselves because they don't want competition. So the functional limit on making more minions is it requires the efforts of the shadow lord who also has his/her evil plan to attend to you see.

Anyway, that's kind of the point I think some folks have been trying to make: that some bits of supposedly necessary fluff... aren't necessary at all. They're left intentionally vague so the DM can fill in story-driven blanks as they see fit.

The process of turning someone into a shadow minion in battle is well described... that's the combat stuff and the stuff you need rules for. The other stuff doesn't *need* rules because it should be determined by the needs of the DM and their specific campaign.

 

[Lackhand]

I'm rapidly concluding that 3e and 4e are not such different beasties as I thought they were. They just approach the same thing from a different perspective, but are equally capable at what they do. The end result is the same - it's just a slightly different journey.

Pinotage

Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.

 

[D'karr]

Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.

And tea... yeah, tea... That's the ticket.

 

[Dragonblade]

Creating fluff, as I see it, is essentially storytelling and that is the entire point of what I enjoy in being a DM. The more of the story that gets told for me and the less I feel like a storyteller and the more I feel like a narrator or a substitute for whatever computer architecture might be running someone's MMO of choice with the decisions and fun bits already decided and me reduced to rolling dice for the monsters.

QFT. Well said!