The Cleave Zombie

[ExploderWizard]

This is a potentially game-breaking combo... in the other thread on Cleave somebody said we should do a new thread about it so here goes:

You are going to face some high level minions, like a legion devil. So you get yourself a zombie minion (you either create one to serve you, or you just go on a zombie roundup and hogtie the thing). So you have a zombie minion in the square next to you (still hogtied, perhaps) when the netherworldly minion (or whatever minion) steps up to rumble. You then use Cleave on the hapless AC 13 zombie and instantly slay the mega-minion.

I think its funny and a waste of time but hardly game breaking. If I understand minions correctly then they are structured to be used in larger numbers. So you waste a per-encounter power AND a regular attack (or at will power) to take out a single minion, when you could have taken out two. Be my guest

 

[Korgoth]

Good heavens mang. With your sig pic, I'd have thought you'd be first on the wagon when it comes to DMs being free to apply judgement, rather than relying on an exhaustive set of rules.

If I'm just making the rules up as we go along... well, I already have my nice spiffy OD&D OCE and supplements.

I have been hearing so much about how 4E fixes all the stuff that irritated me about 3E that, since I have the books on pre-order, I would hope it's real and not pure hype. If I have to sit down and write a house rules document the size of Infinite Jest... well, my house rules for OD&D fit on a few index cards (probably just two if I used both sides).

Good to know that the DMG addresses bag-o-rats, though.

 

[Larrin]

I think its funny and a waste of time but hardly game breaking.

emphasis on waste of time. By RAW you shouldn't see a level ~25 minion until you're level 23-25, at which point you'll likely be able to kill it through standard means with much less monkey business than draggin around a "bag of rats". This would only be a useful tactic if the DM decided to get his jollies by setting legion devils against level 5 chars, which is pretty much a "DON'T DO IT, STUPID!" idea as far as the rules are concerned. against characters 5-10 levels lower, a minion isn't a minion, its a true monster. it gets minionized once the PC's surpass it in general power, and its IMPORTANT that DMs follow that concept.

 

[Korgoth]

against characters 5-10 levels lower, a minion isn't a minion, its a true monster. it gets minionized once the PC's surpass it in general power, and its IMPORTANT that DMs follow that concept.

Sorry but I don't buy that at all. You say that as if it's fact but I disagree.

 

[Peter LaCara]

I'm not really sure why you would ever want to do that, anyway. I mean, couldn't you just cleave a legionnaire as your primary target and kill two of them at once? Seems like lugging a zombie around is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Harr]

I don't know how this is escaping you guys... but the fact that you'd need to bring in level 25+ monsters to fight level 10- characters for this little scenario to even be proposed or contemplated is evidence that the system works.

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

common sense.

just try this. a very old rule...

 

[Grazzt]

common sense.

just try this. a very old rule...

Does that fall under Rule 0?

 

[themilkman]

Just because I find the wording funny...

DMG, page 40.

"When a power has a effect that occurs upon hitting a target--or reducing a target to 0 hit points--the power functions only when the target in question is a meaningful threat. Characters can gain no benefit from carrying a sack of rats in hopes of healing their allies by hitting the rats."

 

[Fifth Element]

I have been hearing so much about how 4E fixes all the stuff that irritated me about 3E that, since I have the books on pre-order, I would hope it's real and not pure hype. If I have to sit down and write a house rules document the size of Infinite Jest...

If your players do this enough that it's a problem, then that's a problem with the players, not the rules, as they say.

The bag-o-rats was never a problem with the rules. It was a ridiculous interpretation of the rules, similar to the situation in the OP.