D&D 5E The curious case of the double-dragon sorcerer

[Nergal Pendragon]

Then change it to red/white. Or black/green. Or switch it to blue/red versus blue/blue. The actual point doesn't change.

You set the goalposts. I was merely playing them.

In this case, you still run across one underlying weakness: For the most part, no sorcerer is ever going to fully know that an elemental resistance is going to be actually useful until after it's proven such. For example, take our example of a red/blue dragon... what happens if he encounters fire damage only twice in his life? He used a racial slot on something that he doesn't face frequently enough for it to ultimately be a worthy outcome. It's still a good idea on average based on the monsters in the MM and the number of fire spells, but overall it still is not something that will be known to be needed until after it has proven so; until then, they are merely playing the odds that it will come up.

And, honestly, I was kinda waiting for you to turn my own argument against me and point that out. I would have had to concede.

No, it is not a strawman. It is exactly your argument that having the option to spend resources for defensive purposes is weaker than being denied that option and having to spend all resources on offense.

Actually, no, that's not my argument. My argument is about taking resources from offensive power to use on defensive purposes for those for whom offensive power is rated as higher. That is not arguing that defensive power should not be used; if it was, the double dragon choice wouldn't be made in the first place. After all, why grab a race for a defensive ability that covers what a class can do when you can grab another race that gives you more offensive power in that class?

Thus, the idea isn't to eliminate defensive options; it's to reduce the need to spend resources on them.

And refusing to address the Battle Master example with a bogus excuse is not an answer.

I did address it. Let me quote my answer yet again:

So, yes, for them, all of those maneuvers are a waste and a potential weakness... thus, why they would instead make a champion.

Does that make it clearer?

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

But that is not the point. I suggest you reread both the dragonborn race and the dragon sorcerer. A double sorcerer does not eliminate the need to spend a resource. The mixed sorcerer gets the same resistance than the double sorcerer without spending a resource too. But he can also get an additional resistance by spending a resource which can be done exactly when it is needed, something the double sorcerer can't do. When he needs a second resistance he is screwed.

And this is the key disconnect: You do not see it as such. But for those who don't want to spend any sorcery points on energy resistance at all and manage to still benefit from it, it very much is eliminating the need to spend a resource.

 

[Derren]

And this is the key disconnect: You do not see it as such. But for those who don't want to spend any sorcery points on energy resistance at all and manage to still benefit from it, it very much is eliminating the need to spend a resource.

Someone who does not want to spend sorcery points on resistance can still take the the mixed sorcerer and just ignore this option. And he still gets an energy resistance for free by being a dragonborn. In that case at the absolute worst both options, mixed in double, are equal. And yet, the mixed sorcerer still leaves you the option to temporarily get a second resistance when you really, really need it, even when you originally did not intend to use that option making this combination advantageous to the double sorcerer.

Edit:

Actually, no, that's not my argument. My argument is about taking resources from offensive power to use on defensive purposes for those for whom offensive power is rated as higher. That is not arguing that defensive power should not be used; if it was, the double dragon choice wouldn't be made in the first place. After all, why grab a race for a defensive ability that covers what a class can do when you can grab another race that gives you more offensive power in that class?

Please get your book and reread both the sorcerer feature and the dragonborn race. I have the feeling you have some very different ideas of how they work than what is in the book.

But in short:
Double sorcerer
Defenses:
Resistance to <insert element here>

Powers:
X Sorcerer points
Spend points on offense metamagic

Mixed sorcerer
Defenses:
Resistance to <insert element here>

Powers:
X Sorcerer points (same amount as double sorcerer)
Spend points on offense metamagic (same options as double sorcerer)
Spend point for Resistance to <insert a different element here>


The mixed sorcerer is sacrificing nothing. He is gaining something as he has everything the double sorcerer has and 1 additional option he can take if he want.

 

[FowlJ]

And this is the key disconnect: You do not see it as such. But for those who don't want to spend any sorcery points on energy resistance at all and manage to still benefit from it, it very much is eliminating the need to spend a resource.

That.. doesn't even make sense. Both sorcerers get permanent resistance to an element without having to spend resources on it. One gets the option of spending resources for resistance to another element, while the other does not get resistance to that element at all.

 

[Joe Liker]

And this is the key disconnect: You do not see it as such. But for those who don't want to spend any sorcery points on energy resistance at all and manage to still benefit from it, it very much is eliminating the need to spend a resource.

There is never a NEED to spend the resource. It is 100 percent optional, even for a mixed sorcerer.

The only difference is that the mixed sorcerer has a 100 percent optional option that the double sorcerer does not.

When a bunch of people are telling you you're not making sense, it might be a good time to back up and check the facts.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

Someone who does not want to spend sorcery points on resistance can still take the the mixed sorcerer and just ignore this option. And he still gets an energy resistance for free by being a dragonborn. In that case at the absolute worst both options, mixed in double, are equal. And yet, the mixed sorcerer still leaves you the option to temporarily get a second resistance when you really, really need it, even when you originally did not intend to use that option making this combination advantageous to the double sorcerer.

In the case where both are equal, taking an option that gives you an ability you will never use is worse because it is not a logical choice. If you are never, ever going to use it... then why even bother having it?

That's the issue. It's not that they can ignore the ability, but that if they're not going to even use it there's no reason for them to even bother taking it.

Edit:


Please get your book and reread both the sorcerer feature and the dragonborn race. I have the feeling you have some very different ideas of how they work than what is in the book.

But in short:
Double sorcerer
Defenses:
Resistance to <insert element here>

Powers:
X Sorcerer points
Spend points on offense metamagic

Mixed sorcerer
Defenses:
Resistance to <insert element here>

Powers:
X Sorcerer points (same amount as double sorcerer)
Spend points on offense metamagic (same options as double sorcerer)
Spend point for Resistance to <insert a different element here>


The mixed sorcerer is sacrificing nothing. He is gaining something as he has everything the double sorcerer has and 1 additional option he can take if he want.

For someone who thinks along the lines of putting their spellpoints in areas other than resistance because they have a racial to provide it, it is a waste. That doesn't mean your thinking isn't right for you. It just means they are approaching it differently. And it doesn't matter how much you argue on it, how much you try to convince, how much math you produce... you're still effectively saying something that comes across better in your line of thinking and worse in their's.

This isn't an issue where you can win. Which is why this should have remained settled back on page 1 when Joe Liker made his decision.

 

[Fralex]

• There exist situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is no worse off than a mixed one.
• There exist situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is worse off than a mixed one.
• There exist no situations in which a single bloodline dragonborn sorcerer is better off than a mixed one.

It's not a huge difference in good-ness, but having a mixed draconic bloodline is definitely slightly better in some cases than, and is always at least as good as, a single draconic bloodline.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

That.. doesn't even make sense. Both sorcerers get permanent resistance to an element without having to spend resources on it. One gets the option of spending resources for resistance to another element, while the other does not get resistance to that element at all.

Your goal is to limit areas you spend sorcery points on so you can spend them in the other areas. You take a racial ability that provides the same as part of a sorcerer class ability specifically so you don't have to spend any points in that sorcerer ability. You will never spend any points on the sorcerer energy resistance. Why would you even bother with setting it up so that you could spend points in this case?

That's how it makes sense.

 

[Derren]

In the case where both are equal, taking an option that gives you an ability you will never use is worse because it is not a logical choice. If you are never, ever going to use it... then why even bother having it?

That's the issue. It's not that they can ignore the ability, but that if they're not going to even use it there's no reason for them to even bother taking it.

Thats frankly nonsense. Having an optional ability is never a disadvantage. Having this ability written on the character sheet, even if you will never use it, is not a weakness. At no point, in no circumstance is a mixed sorcerer weaker than a double sorcerer. And thats even before you acknowledge that we can't see into the future and that the ability you intend not to use can turn out to be quite useful in the future.

Your goal is to limit areas you spend sorcery points on so you can spend them in the other areas. You take a racial ability that provides the same as part of a sorcerer class ability specifically so you don't have to spend any points in that sorcerer ability. You will never spend any points on the sorcerer energy resistance. Why would you even bother with setting it up so that you could spend points in this case?

That's how it makes sense.

There is no way a dragonborn sorcerer has to spend sorcerer points to get the first energy resistance. Every possible combination of colors get that. A double sorcerer does not limit anything. And having the option, even when you do not intend to use it, is still more useful than not having the option.

Besides you have lost the sight of the original question which was why the thematically more appropriate double sorcerer ends up weaker than a mixed sorcerer.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

There is never a NEED to spend the resource. It is 100 percent optional, even for a mixed sorcerer.

The only difference is that the mixed sorcerer has a 100 percent optional option that the double sorcerer does not.

When a bunch of people are telling you you're not making sense, it might be a good time to back up and check the facts.

And you're still not justifying why someone should make a decision to build their sorcerer in a way to allow them to have an option that they don't even want.

Also, calling upon the bandwagon fallacy doesn't prove anything except to show the weakness of an argument.