Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The D&D Boss Fight
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="TheAngryDM" data-source="post: 5288502" data-attributes="member: 93931"><p>I don't really understand the vehement opposition to the idea of a solo creature, but, fortunately, no one is forced to use them. For those that DO want to use them (like myself), there are ways that they can be done and done well and enjoyably. My group seems to enjoy the occasional solo encounter (even without using boss mechanics) and I've had a positive response from lots of others.</p><p> </p><p>Comparing 4E to previous editions really isn't useful in this case. Previous editions lacked solo mechanics because the game wasn't built with a rigorous sense of encounter balance. Even 3.5 had the CR system overlaid AFTER the rules, classes, and monsters were designed (see D&D Podcast 4E preview episodes where Mike Mearls and Dave Noonan talk about the process of testing game balance in 3E with the Genericon Monsters). 4E's standard monster is balanced to appear in groups of five or so. A different mechanic is needed for a creature that can pose a good challenge to a party by itself. Again, contrast this with 3E in which the basic assumption was that one monster against the party (a single CR 5 monster was a good challenge for an entire 5th level party). Thus, all monsters were 'solo' by default in 3E, which is why fractional CRs got added below level 1. </p><p> </p><p>As for the story and flavor of solo monsters, I just don't understand the objection. Can you explain to me why there can't be creatures so powerful that they can take down a full party of adventurers. The iconic dragon encounter is not in which the dragon and his four buddies attack the party. It is when a party is hard pressed to take down a single dragon. And most of the solos fall into this category of uber-powerful creatures: dragons, beholders, gods, primordials, the kraken, etc.</p><p> </p><p>You might not like the idea of the lone goblin that turns out to be a solo (and neither do I, for that matter). But that isn't the only way to have a solo and it certainly needs a story explanation to be consistent with the world. But that is not enough of a reason not to include the option, if you can make the option work mechanically. </p><p> </p><p>As to why my first boss is "just" an ogre? What's my justification. Simply this, ogres are powerful enough that a party doesn't encounter them until eighth or ninth level. So, they are very powerful creatures. I could model that simply by using a ninth level creature in a third level dungeon, but the party would never be able to hit it, the damage would be too high, they would get pasted, and the ogre would eat up so much of the XP budget that he'd have to handle the battle alone anyway. So, I model him as a third level solo instead - he's defeatable, but its a big, rough, climatic fight. </p><p> </p><p>In six levels, when the party fights another ogre and they remember this fight and it shows them how powerful they've become. They had to pull out all the stops just to defeat a single ogre and now they can take down five of the things in a fairly routine battle.</p><p> </p><p>So, in this case, there is a story justification built around the mechanics. Ogres are powerful and a third level party is just not good enough to take one down without a lot of struggle. Their conditions don't effect the creature as well because the skill/magical power/combat prowess just isn't there yet. Its all relative. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Ultimately, I am sure I am misunderstanding this statement most of all. On the one hand, it seems as if you are saying "Solos don't work and fixing them is bad because they are broken." On the other hand, you are saying they lack consistency. If every dragon (except the unique special case, such as a baby or a completely different race of dragons) is a solo, that seems pretty consistent to me. If every beholder is a solo, still consistent. Yes, if a goblin just randomly turns out to (surprise!) be a solo, that's bad - but it is a bad use of the system, it is not a bad system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheAngryDM, post: 5288502, member: 93931"] I don't really understand the vehement opposition to the idea of a solo creature, but, fortunately, no one is forced to use them. For those that DO want to use them (like myself), there are ways that they can be done and done well and enjoyably. My group seems to enjoy the occasional solo encounter (even without using boss mechanics) and I've had a positive response from lots of others. Comparing 4E to previous editions really isn't useful in this case. Previous editions lacked solo mechanics because the game wasn't built with a rigorous sense of encounter balance. Even 3.5 had the CR system overlaid AFTER the rules, classes, and monsters were designed (see D&D Podcast 4E preview episodes where Mike Mearls and Dave Noonan talk about the process of testing game balance in 3E with the Genericon Monsters). 4E's standard monster is balanced to appear in groups of five or so. A different mechanic is needed for a creature that can pose a good challenge to a party by itself. Again, contrast this with 3E in which the basic assumption was that one monster against the party (a single CR 5 monster was a good challenge for an entire 5th level party). Thus, all monsters were 'solo' by default in 3E, which is why fractional CRs got added below level 1. As for the story and flavor of solo monsters, I just don't understand the objection. Can you explain to me why there can't be creatures so powerful that they can take down a full party of adventurers. The iconic dragon encounter is not in which the dragon and his four buddies attack the party. It is when a party is hard pressed to take down a single dragon. And most of the solos fall into this category of uber-powerful creatures: dragons, beholders, gods, primordials, the kraken, etc. You might not like the idea of the lone goblin that turns out to be a solo (and neither do I, for that matter). But that isn't the only way to have a solo and it certainly needs a story explanation to be consistent with the world. But that is not enough of a reason not to include the option, if you can make the option work mechanically. As to why my first boss is "just" an ogre? What's my justification. Simply this, ogres are powerful enough that a party doesn't encounter them until eighth or ninth level. So, they are very powerful creatures. I could model that simply by using a ninth level creature in a third level dungeon, but the party would never be able to hit it, the damage would be too high, they would get pasted, and the ogre would eat up so much of the XP budget that he'd have to handle the battle alone anyway. So, I model him as a third level solo instead - he's defeatable, but its a big, rough, climatic fight. In six levels, when the party fights another ogre and they remember this fight and it shows them how powerful they've become. They had to pull out all the stops just to defeat a single ogre and now they can take down five of the things in a fairly routine battle. So, in this case, there is a story justification built around the mechanics. Ogres are powerful and a third level party is just not good enough to take one down without a lot of struggle. Their conditions don't effect the creature as well because the skill/magical power/combat prowess just isn't there yet. Its all relative. Ultimately, I am sure I am misunderstanding this statement most of all. On the one hand, it seems as if you are saying "Solos don't work and fixing them is bad because they are broken." On the other hand, you are saying they lack consistency. If every dragon (except the unique special case, such as a baby or a completely different race of dragons) is a solo, that seems pretty consistent to me. If every beholder is a solo, still consistent. Yes, if a goblin just randomly turns out to (surprise!) be a solo, that's bad - but it is a bad use of the system, it is not a bad system. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The D&D Boss Fight
Top