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The D&D Boss Fight
- Thread starter Matrix Sorcica
- Start date
WhatGravitas
Explorer
Interesting - though I think the example (Bloodknuckes) short-sells the idea a bit. The suggestion of replacing the middle part of the encounter with something else entirely (pursuit skill challenge, minions etc.) is a lot more interesting.
Nice job of breaking down the problem and pointing out solutions, though.
Cheers, LT.
Nice job of breaking down the problem and pointing out solutions, though.
Cheers, LT.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Stages put the PC's into a ' fight script sequence' that is too much like a videogame for tabletop play IMHO.
Part of the fun of tabletop play is the uncertainty of outcomes. A dangerous combat against a powerful foe is exciting only if the danger level to both the PC's and the monster are running high.
The action economy is the best place to fix solo problems. Stages may make players feel like they are wasting powers by expending resources on a useless buffer (which is what stages are) or they will quickly realize that they are in a staged fight. If that happens they will try and hold back the good stuff until the last stage when it really has a chance of ending things quickly. This will make the early stages frontloaded with extra long grind as the PC's try and peck the boss into later stages with at-wills.
I was thinking of trying something different with solos. We already have a selection of monster powers that vary in strength in the form of encounter, recharge, and at-will. Give actual solo encounter monsters a number of turns equal to the number of PC's -1. Thus a party of 5 would face a solo boss that got 4 turns per combat round.
Each round the solo could use 1 encounter level ability, 1 or 2 recharge level powers (depending on # of PC's), and the rest at-will level powers.
The solo could use these powers in any order desired. Once initiative rolled back to the solo's 1st turn in the round, the action availability resets. The solo would have an initiative stagger so that it acted first on its rolled initiative then in between the PC's turns.
On the upside, damage per attack wouldn't have to be so high due to the increased action count and the effect of conditions on the solo wouldn't be so harsh due to said number of actions. I would only use this design for solos that are actually alone. They might be too deadly otherwise.
I'm going work on statting up one of these bad boys and testing it in my campaign.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Thanks in advance.
Part of the fun of tabletop play is the uncertainty of outcomes. A dangerous combat against a powerful foe is exciting only if the danger level to both the PC's and the monster are running high.
The action economy is the best place to fix solo problems. Stages may make players feel like they are wasting powers by expending resources on a useless buffer (which is what stages are) or they will quickly realize that they are in a staged fight. If that happens they will try and hold back the good stuff until the last stage when it really has a chance of ending things quickly. This will make the early stages frontloaded with extra long grind as the PC's try and peck the boss into later stages with at-wills.
I was thinking of trying something different with solos. We already have a selection of monster powers that vary in strength in the form of encounter, recharge, and at-will. Give actual solo encounter monsters a number of turns equal to the number of PC's -1. Thus a party of 5 would face a solo boss that got 4 turns per combat round.
Each round the solo could use 1 encounter level ability, 1 or 2 recharge level powers (depending on # of PC's), and the rest at-will level powers.
The solo could use these powers in any order desired. Once initiative rolled back to the solo's 1st turn in the round, the action availability resets. The solo would have an initiative stagger so that it acted first on its rolled initiative then in between the PC's turns.
On the upside, damage per attack wouldn't have to be so high due to the increased action count and the effect of conditions on the solo wouldn't be so harsh due to said number of actions. I would only use this design for solos that are actually alone. They might be too deadly otherwise.
I'm going work on statting up one of these bad boys and testing it in my campaign.
Thoughts? Ideas?
Thanks in advance.
eamon
Explorer
I think these are good ideas. But don't overdo them.
Looks to me like people look at solo's weaknesses as if they were some mechanical issue. Just revamp the mechanics somehow and then you're good to go! But, alas that's nonsense.
If you can teleport the solo over a cliff, or just push him, it's still just a single save (albeit with bonus that's commonly incoherent) away from instant death/irrelevance. The weakness of a solo vs. conditions is not merely a side-effect of poor mechanics, it's intrinsic in it failing to have any allies that could back it up.
At the end of the day a single creature is just a single creature and that's an inherent weakness - it can't spread out nor can it survive partially. You can "fix" that with some creativity, but if you overdo it, it turns into a farce.
Maybe sometimes a solo super-creature makes sense. Usually, it does not. The question isn't usually how to fix solo's - it's why the heck are these things solo's in the first place?
Looks to me like people look at solo's weaknesses as if they were some mechanical issue. Just revamp the mechanics somehow and then you're good to go! But, alas that's nonsense.
If you can teleport the solo over a cliff, or just push him, it's still just a single save (albeit with bonus that's commonly incoherent) away from instant death/irrelevance. The weakness of a solo vs. conditions is not merely a side-effect of poor mechanics, it's intrinsic in it failing to have any allies that could back it up.
At the end of the day a single creature is just a single creature and that's an inherent weakness - it can't spread out nor can it survive partially. You can "fix" that with some creativity, but if you overdo it, it turns into a farce.
Maybe sometimes a solo super-creature makes sense. Usually, it does not. The question isn't usually how to fix solo's - it's why the heck are these things solo's in the first place?
I absolutely LOVE this idea! Esp the skill challenge in the middle idea.
Solos are indeed too static, as in the solo stands there hardly moves.
I love the idea of having my players tracking a dragon into a cave, fighting it, it blasts the cieling, and takes off. Now the players hop on thier mounts, force it back to the ground in completely new terrain via skill challenge, allowing for awesome cinematic creativity, then a final fight at the edge of a waterfall or lava flow or something epic.
The idea of the lich, fight a medium sized lich, he realizes he underestimated the part, throws up an impentreable wall of shadows type thing and goes into a cacoon of necromantic energy while he focuses, summoning an enouncter of zombies and skeletons. While drawing in the necromantic energy, he provides a leader bonus in the form of say, an Aura 5. Any ally of his in the aura gains regen x, and enemies regain only half of any hitpoints they would normally get from healing. After the skeletons go down, he breaks his shell, doing some damage, and grows to large or even huge size for the final fight.
That sounds like a load of fun to me!
Solos are indeed too static, as in the solo stands there hardly moves.
I love the idea of having my players tracking a dragon into a cave, fighting it, it blasts the cieling, and takes off. Now the players hop on thier mounts, force it back to the ground in completely new terrain via skill challenge, allowing for awesome cinematic creativity, then a final fight at the edge of a waterfall or lava flow or something epic.
The idea of the lich, fight a medium sized lich, he realizes he underestimated the part, throws up an impentreable wall of shadows type thing and goes into a cacoon of necromantic energy while he focuses, summoning an enouncter of zombies and skeletons. While drawing in the necromantic energy, he provides a leader bonus in the form of say, an Aura 5. Any ally of his in the aura gains regen x, and enemies regain only half of any hitpoints they would normally get from healing. After the skeletons go down, he breaks his shell, doing some damage, and grows to large or even huge size for the final fight.
That sounds like a load of fun to me!
hayek
Explorer
Reading the articles, I thought the author was headed exactly where ExploderWizard went. If the issue is action economy and solos able to be locked down, a very simple and elegant solution is to just give the solo more turns. I think PCs - 1 is a little much, though, since solos have a variety of minor action/interrupt attacks. Just giving a solo 2 or 3 turns per round would go a long ways. Any effects that last until the end of the enemy's next turn would end part way through the round when it took its next action, and it will get to save multiple times throughout a round.
For more variety in the encounter just add some more traits and powers that only kick in when the creature is bloodied.
I like the author's ideas, but it really is a whole new subsystem. Just adding turns is a lot quicker and simpler.
For more variety in the encounter just add some more traits and powers that only kick in when the creature is bloodied.
I like the author's ideas, but it really is a whole new subsystem. Just adding turns is a lot quicker and simpler.
RyvenCedrylle
First Post
See also anything on the At-Will blog about Worldbreakers.
ExploderWizard
Hero
An ancient dragon is discovered in it's lair sitting atop a mound of treasure.
The demilich awaits those foolhardy enough to navigate through it's tomb and into the burial chamber.
Something awful stirs in the swamp where men dare not go. Monstrous tentacles lurk just beneath the water's surface.
These are iconic D&D type encounters. There are some "solos" that might have allies but they need to feel right to warrant inclusion. Adding hangers on for the sake of combat planning is just as bad as tweaking rules for loners as far as atmosphere is concerned.
Tightrope
I agree with you 100% on this issue. In my experience as a player, a solo equates to free xp and treasure for our group. The reasons for this are the reasons that have been mentioned. We lock down the solo with control, and we unload massive amounts of damage. In addition, the solo just doesn't have enough action economy. We went up against a solo blue dragon at level 12 recently. The DM did a really great job of making some really cool powers to help improve the dragon.
I'm the group's defender, I'm a Swordmage/Warlock/Avernian Knight. I use a Staggering Weapon and Rushing Cleats, so I can move enemies around as I see fit with my basic attack (Eldritch Strike).
My wife uses a Frost Greatbow and consistently drops 1 die of quarry damage to slow her targets.
The two of us and the wizard just locked it down, it barely escaped (my wife fumbled I think).
Something needs to be done RAW in my opinion for sure, solo = fail.
I agree with you 100% on this issue. In my experience as a player, a solo equates to free xp and treasure for our group. The reasons for this are the reasons that have been mentioned. We lock down the solo with control, and we unload massive amounts of damage. In addition, the solo just doesn't have enough action economy. We went up against a solo blue dragon at level 12 recently. The DM did a really great job of making some really cool powers to help improve the dragon.
I'm the group's defender, I'm a Swordmage/Warlock/Avernian Knight. I use a Staggering Weapon and Rushing Cleats, so I can move enemies around as I see fit with my basic attack (Eldritch Strike).
My wife uses a Frost Greatbow and consistently drops 1 die of quarry damage to slow her targets.
The two of us and the wizard just locked it down, it barely escaped (my wife fumbled I think).
Something needs to be done RAW in my opinion for sure, solo = fail.
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