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The dominated condition and sneak attack

DracoSuave

First Post
I can see why this has been an "unsolved" topic in the past. Honestly I could see "enemy" going either way with regards to this situation. On the one hand, RAW your allies are not your enemies, but on the other hand it's the big bad that's in charge of your action, and your allies are definitely his enemies. :erm:

Being in charge of a singular action does not change the essential definition of what an ally or enemy is.

Allies are, by definition, 'Your character's companions in this encounter' (RC) and being dominated doesn't mysticly change your companions to 'a foe of your character.'

All dominated does is allow the dominator to use one of your actions per turn. That one action is not enough to change the basis of who your companions and your foes are. Who your dominator's foes are or companions are is irrelevant to that point. All aspects of your character outside that singular action within your ability are still controlled by you. If you are allowed to make an attack by one of your allies, your dominator does not control it. He only has control over one action, not the entirety of your character.
 

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moxcamel

Explorer
Being in charge of a singular action does not change the essential definition of what an ally or enemy is.

Allies are, by definition, 'Your character's companions in this encounter' (RC) and being dominated doesn't mysticly change your companions to 'a foe of your character.'

All dominated does is allow the dominator to use one of your actions per turn. That one action is not enough to change the basis of who your companions and your foes are. Who your dominator's foes are or companions are is irrelevant to that point. All aspects of your character outside that singular action within your ability are still controlled by you. If you are allowed to make an attack by one of your allies, your dominator does not control it. He only has control over one action, not the entirety of your character.
Yep, I understand completely. And if I were a rules lawyer (and I'm not using that derogatorily here), I'd be in 100% agreement and would not allow it at my table.

But on the other hand, there's also a "spirit of the law" angle I'm seeing too. I can totally see the scene: the rogue experiences a moment of panic as he realizes he's no longer in control of his actions. His buddy, standing right next to him, is busy with his own problems and doesn't notice his friend's internal struggle. As the rogue loses his fight to regain control of his own body, he plunges his dagger into the back of his comrade.

There are countless books and movies where this scene plays out, and it's a powerful story-telling element. It's not something you have to stretch towards disbelief, it's something you can really see happening. This isn't house-ruling, this is trying to glean the intent of the designer. After all, the Back Stab feature isn't using "enemy" as a key-word, it's using it as a descriptive term. I think there's the possibility of some play here beyond an orthodox reading of the RAW.
 

Abstruse

Legend
This also brings up a question about the Assassin's shrouds. Placing shrouds is a free action and invoking them is part of the attack action. So would a dominated Assassin be able to place/invoke shrouds as well?

If the argument is the "enemy" line, then a lot of powers wouldn't work at all while dominated, at least in the monster's favor. Beguiling Strands, for example, is an at-will power that would be a viable dominated attack, but if you go with enemies and allies not changing, then the attack wouldn't do anything to the PCs. Personally, I feel that argument is completely wrong because it defeats the purpose of the dominated status - it's not the PC that's attacking, it's the monster/NPC that's dominating that's performing the action.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
This also brings up a question about the Assassin's shrouds. Placing shrouds is a free action and invoking them is part of the attack action. So would a dominated Assassin be able to place/invoke shrouds as well?

Placing shrouds is an action. The dominated creature can take no actions outside of the one the dominator chooses for him.

If the argument is the "enemy" line, then a lot of powers wouldn't work at all while dominated, at least in the monster's favor. Beguiling Strands, for example, is an at-will power that would be a viable dominated attack, but if you go with enemies and allies not changing, then the attack wouldn't do anything to the PCs. Personally, I feel that argument is completely wrong because it defeats the purpose of the dominated status - it's not the PC that's attacking, it's the monster/NPC that's dominating that's performing the action.

It absolutely is the PC attacking. The monster is choosing the action, but it is the PC that is attacking for all purposes within the rules. At-will powers that are restricted to ally/enemy status still work the same. Leader powers that give bonuses to allies won't give bonuses to the dominating monster, and powers that assign penalties to enemies won't assign penalties to dominating monster's enemies.

"Dominated", like a million other things in 4e, just does NOT mean the same thing it did in 3rd edition, and I think that's the problem. Dominated in 3rd edition meant a full and total control over that character in every single way, and generally for an extended period of time. It COULD turn enemies into allies, and sometimes permanently.

4th edition 'dominated' is not total, applies to a single action per round, and goes away in a matter of a few seconds in game time, at the absolute worst case scenario, five minutes later. That's not enough of an effect NOR duration to warrant it a complete change in loyalties of the character.

Narratively, the character still has the ability to make some small decisions, particularily if he is granted choices outside of his turn structure. He can still choose to make bonus saving throws if he gets those. He's by no means helplessly under the control of the dominator. He can still 'fight it' and probably is growling in sentance fragments 'GET OUT OF MY HEAD DON'T MAKE ME ATTACK MY FRIENDS.'

From the PHB update:

In spite of this condition, the creature’s allies remain its allies, and its enemies remain its enemies. (Thus, if the dominator makes the creature attack one of its allies, it does not attack an ally of the dominator.) If the dominator tries to force the creature to throw itself into a pit or move into some other form of hindering terrain, the creature gets a saving throw to avoid entering the terrain


From a RAW standpoint, there is no debate. The question is answered directly.
 

moxcamel

Explorer
4th edition 'dominated' is not total, applies to a single action per round, and goes away in a matter of a few seconds in game time, at the absolute worst case scenario, five minutes later. That's not enough of an effect NOR duration to warrant it a complete change in loyalties of the character
...
From a RAW standpoint, there is no debate. The question is answered directly.
If you couldn't treat the PC's allies as an "enemy" for the purposes of the Domination, then I think an argument could be made that you cannot in fact attack your allies at all. After all, there is no "change in loyalties" that would cause you to attack your friends.

What's the difference between being Dominated into making a basic melee attack, and making a Sneak Attack? One word seems to hinge around your reading of the rules: "enemy." But "enemy" is not a keyword. It's a descriptive word used to clarify the text. Basically what you're saying is that the only powers a Dominated creature could be forced into using are powers that use terms like "target" instead of enemy.

What if a Mage were being Dominated, could he be forced to use "Horrid Whispers?" Seems like he could, because it's a burst 1 within 10. But then who does it affect? The power description says it affects "enemies." It just seems silly to me that it would affect the bad guys instead of the PCs.

So no, I don't think the question is answered directly. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but neither do I think it's such a cleanly solved problem.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
If you couldn't treat the PC's allies as an "enemy" for the purposes of the Domination, then I think an argument could be made that you cannot in fact attack your allies at all. After all, there is no "change in loyalties" that would cause you to attack your friends.

If the power is 'Target creature' than their status as allies or enemies is rendered moot. Target creature powers can target your allies, and on top of that, they can't say no to the power. If the power targets allies explicitly, they can simply go 'No' and ignore it.

What's the difference between being Dominated into making a basic melee attack, and making a Sneak Attack?

There are tons of differences, like one is an attack, and a power, and has the weapon keyword, and is an at-will power, and uses a standard action, and the other is not an attack, not a power, and not an action, and not in any way shape or form even similar.

So... I don't know where you're going with that because your understanding of what the rules seem to say and mine are on different levels. So... allow me to explain.

The dominator gets to choose one action for you each turn. That action can be a standard, move, minor, or free action, but they only get to choose one. Otherwise, you cannot take ANY actions.

Let's say the dominator chooses for you to use the Melee Basic Attack power. You do so, and you hit. Once you've rolled damage, your Sneak Attack class feature kicks in, allowing you to add damage on to that roll. This is part of the same action and as such, the dominator can make the choice for you, as the dominator controls your entire action.

This does not necessarily apply to every striker, however. A dominator cannot use a Monk's Flurry of Blows because that is a free action, and not only has the dominator used the one action they are allowed that turn, the dominated condition ALSO forbids the use of actions outside that one. Had that restriction not been there, YOU could use Flurry of Blows if the attack he made you use while dominated hit... and used it to damage the dominator, if he were a legal target for it.

One word seems to hinge around your reading of the rules: "enemy." But "enemy" is not a keyword.

No, it is however a rules term. Keywords refer to the bold text after 'At-Will' in a power.

It's a descriptive word used to clarify the text. Basically what you're saying is that the only powers a Dominated creature could be forced into using are powers that use terms like "target" instead of enemy.

No, the only powers a dominated creature could be forced into using are powers that are at-will.

However, it is probably a bad idea tactically for the dominator to force you to use powers that 'target enemy' or 'enemies' because those powers could only legally target your party's enemies.

This is not a rule set in stone, however. Let's say you come upon a battle between kobolds and goblins, and your mission is to remove both of them from the dungeon you're in. It is therefore conceivable that you'd get into a fight against both simultaneously. The goblins and the kobolds are both your enemies, but the goblins' enemies are the kobolds and your party. So one of the goblins could dominate you, then use your 'target enemy' powers to attack the kobolds just fine; they ARE your enemies after all.

'Target ally' powers are a bad idea as well, as you can't use them to help your dominator's allies, and if they have a negative effect on your own party, they can choose to ignore those negative effects.

So, yes, most of the time, dominators are just going to use 'target creature' powers. Of course, this is hardly a problem, as the vast majority of at-will attack powers, including melee basic attacks, are 'Target creature.'

What if a Mage were being Dominated, could he be forced to use "Horrid Whispers?" Seems like he could, because it's a burst 1 within 10. But then who does it affect? The power description says it affects "enemies." It just seems silly to me that it would affect the bad guys instead of the PCs.

The PCs are not the dominated creature's enemies, so no, it would not effect them. The dominated status is not complete control. It is control over a single action. If the afflicted creature were, say... the unwilling thrall using a more powerful magic, then ya, you could make the argument that the control is total and overwhelming enough to change enemies to allies.

Something that doesn't offer total control and doesn't last longer than five minutes surely does not qualify as 'alignment changing.' The dominated character has full choice over anything that does not fall within that one action per turn, therefore control is not total, therefore it can be reasoned that he has enough control NOT to blast his allies with magic that discriminates between allies and enemies. Magic that does not discriminate does not have that luxury.

So no, I don't think the question is answered directly. I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but neither do I think it's such a cleanly solved problem.

The rules are pretty much cut and dry on this, and answer the problem specificly. If you are dominated, allies are still allies, and enemies are still enemies. Those are defined game terms in the rules.

You don't have to like it, and can rule otherwise in your games. As far as the rules themselves are concerned however... it's a done deal.

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Of course, the enemy can't force you to use a power it isn't aware of the existance of. Nor can you do that to a monster. Fortunately, monster knowledge checks allow awareness of the powers of the enemy, as does observing them use an at-will power. If a dominating monster doesn't have a good Nature/Arcana/Appropriate skill here, chances are it won't even know what powers to use, so it's Melee Basic Attacks all the way.

You are not obligated to -tell- the monster what your attacks are, unless it uses a free action to force you to do so. And that would be your one action that turn. And that means you won't do anything else.
 
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Brys

First Post
I mostly agree with Draco (unless I misunderstood his position in which case I may completely agree).

The text for Sneak Attack in Heroes of the Fallen Lands (pg 174) says (emphasis mine):
Benefit: When you make an attack with a light blade, a hand crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling and hit an enemy granting combat advantage to you, that enemy takes extra damage...

From that text, your ally will never be hit by your Sneak Attack even if you are dominated. I'm not aware of any updates to that wording. If it is different from what is in CB, I don't know which source takes precedence.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
I mostly agree with Draco (unless I misunderstood his position in which case I may completely agree).

The text for Sneak Attack in Heroes of the Fallen Lands (pg 174) says (emphasis mine):
Benefit: When you make an attack with a light blade, a hand crossbow, a shortbow, or a sling and hit an enemy granting combat advantage to you, that enemy takes extra damage...

From that text, your ally will never be hit by your Sneak Attack even if you are dominated. I'm not aware of any updates to that wording. If it is different from what is in CB, I don't know which source takes precedence.

Using this wording, you would be correct, and sneak attack cannot be applied to your allies when dominated.

Good eye, I was operating off of memory with that one.

It's MRP, so that's the correct wording.
 

moxcamel

Explorer
Draco, I'm not sure what the wall of text is meant for, I think we've hashed out the mechanics pretty well already.

Where the hang-up is, is on the definition of "enemy." You've decided that it is a "rules term," which is your definition, not WotC's. As I said, "enemy" is not a concretely defined term, but you have decided to define it in very narrow terms. Taking a look at the Compendium, I don't even see "enemy" listed in the glossary.

So yes, if you have decided at your table that "enemy" is very narrowly defined as you have said, then you cannot be dominated into using any power that targets what you have defined concretely as an "enemy." If, however, you have decided to use Domination in the spirit in which I believe it was intended, you will read "enemy" as a synonym for "target" in this case.

You keep saying that there is no room for interpretation here, but I think it's been shown that there is, in fact, room for interpretation simply because we are forced to interpret the key term, "enemy." Part of the problem is in the wording of the class feature. Since "enemy" has no clearly defined definition within the mechanics of the game, you the DM must decide on what that definition is. You have decided one way, another DM might decide another way, and neither one of you is either home-ruling or wrong.
 

Aulirophile

First Post
Draco, I'm not sure what the wall of text is meant for, I think we've hashed out the mechanics pretty well already.

Where the hang-up is, is on the definition of "enemy." You've decided that it is a "rules term," which is your definition, not WotC's. As I said, "enemy" is not a concretely defined term, but you have decided to define it in very narrow terms. Taking a look at the Compendium, I don't even see "enemy" listed in the glossary.

So yes, if you have decided at your table that "enemy" is very narrowly defined as you have said, then you cannot be dominated into using any power that targets what you have defined concretely as an "enemy." If, however, you have decided to use Domination in the spirit in which I believe it was intended, you will read "enemy" as a synonym for "target" in this case.

You keep saying that there is no room for interpretation here, but I think it's been shown that there is, in fact, room for interpretation simply because we are forced to interpret the key term, "enemy." Part of the problem is in the wording of the class feature. Since "enemy" has no clearly defined definition within the mechanics of the game, you the DM must decide on what that definition is. You have decided one way, another DM might decide another way, and neither one of you is either home-ruling or wrong.
Uh, yes it is. "Enemy: An Opponent of the Power's User." RC, under targeting. Dominate specifically says your allies and enemies don't change while Dominated. Done.
 

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