D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[B.T.]

If the wizard is flying, they should be able to walk on the wind because they're awesome. They should be able to smash mountains, run really fast, dance on the tips of spears, lasso tornados, and straight up not die. If Pecos Bill, Cucuhlainn, Roland, or Benkei could do it, so can the fighter. I suspect I will get many comments about the terrible anime fighter and how real fighters are totally mundane warriors who are somehow worthy of respect by guys who can fly around, teleport, turn invisible, and conjure armies of minions, but quite frankly the "mundane only" fighter is a joke which falls apart the first time your fighter deals enough damage to wreck a main battle tank or survives being sat on by a dragon.

The people who want a game to do things in the highlighted section are better off not playing D&D. D&D has never had these things possible, and I'm not interested in playing a game where they are possible. If I wanted to play that kind of game, I would play Exalted.

 

[Najo]

The people who want a game to do things in the highlighted section are better off not playing D&D. D&D has never had these things possible, and I'm not interested in playing a game where they are possible. If I wanted to play that kind of game, I would play Exalted.

D&D has always leaned that way at high/epic levels. Since AD&D, we've had deities & demigods. Since D&D boxed sets we've had immortal level play. And when its not cooked into the rules, Wizards high level spells and some of the magic items start allowing some of these things. It has always been assumed characters end up becoming Demi gods.

 

[B.T.]

D&D has always leaned that way at high/epic levels. Since AD&D, we've had deities & demigods. Since D&D boxed sets we've had immortal level play. And when its not cooked into the rules, Wizards high level spells and some of the magic items start allowing some of these things. It has always been assumed characters end up becoming Demi gods.

The fighter stabbing up Lolth (with her whopping 66 HP) is much, much different than the fighter throwing a mountain at someone.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The fighter stabbing up Lolth (with her whopping 66 HP) is much, much different than the fighter throwing a mountain at someone.

No kidding.

D&D has always leaned that way at high/epic levels. Since AD&D, we've had deities & demigods. Since D&D boxed sets we've had immortal level play. And when its not cooked into the rules, Wizards high level spells and some of the magic items start allowing some of these things. It has always been assumed characters end up becoming Demi gods.

There's also a big difference between high levels and low levels. It's true that an epic DC balance check in 3.5 lets you walk on water, but that's epic. Epic is great. Epic is fun. Epic is not a typical D&D game.

The way D&D has "always leaned" at low/medium levels is that a fighter is a hero, but not a superhero. And, rather importantly, the vast majority of play takes place at those levels.

 

[KidSnide]

And 5e seems to be embracing the 4e paradigm. See the Mearls quote. It doesn't matter how powerful of a psion you become, you are still making a strength check to get past that damn door.

I think you're reading Mike's comment more broadly than it intends. He's not saying that a 20th level psion must use strength to get through a door (as opposed to phasing to the other side). He's just saying that a 20th-level psion with a strength of 7 can't kick through an iron-bound door just because he reached 20th level.*

-KS

* Personally, I don't have a problem with 20th level psions "strengthing" their way through iron-bound wooden doors. It's described as a strength check, but I would narrate that the psion is actually using telekinesis. I think the problem Mike is describing is more of an adventure design problem than a rules design problem. But I agree that the rules design seems to encourage adventure designers to fall into the trap of thinking: "these doors must be obstacles, so I need to bind them in adamantine."

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The fighter stabbing up Lolth (with her whopping 66 HP) is much, much different than the fighter throwing a mountain at someone.

Really?

"Yeah, I walked up to the meta-physical personification of the wickedness of the fallen elves, of hatred, jealousy, and envy made incarnate, passing through her realm in all its twisted, chaotic stasis, and I cut her head of with a sword."

The mind boggles, because that is some pretty out-there stuff.

 

[billd91]

Really?

"Yeah, I walked up to the meta-physical personification of the wickedness of the fallen elves, of hatred, jealousy, and envy made incarnate, passing through her realm in all its twisted, chaotic stasis, and I cut her head of with a sword."

The mind boggles, because that is some pretty out-there stuff.

But equivalent to flinging a mountain? I think not.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But equivalent to flinging a mountain? I think not.

You're right - attacking and killing an idea is far more gonzo than just tossing a lot of rocks around.

 

[B.T.]

Really?

Really. Because even Diomedes could wound Aphrodite.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Really. Because even Diomedes could wound Aphrodite.

Ahah. So, you think Fighters should play like the heroes in Greek tragedies and epics?