The double standard for magical and mundane abilities

ThirdWizard

First Post
Whereas the Rogue can keep on sneaking and the Fighter can keep on swinging with no comparable resource having been lost and no hampering of progression or gaining of power.

In fairness, this thread came about because people were discussing removing the "at-will" nature of the rogue's sneak, specifically. If the at-will nature of the power (lightfooted halfling hiding behind an ally) is balanced by the factor of having to roll to perform the action, then removing the at-will nature of the ability is similar to requiring a skill check to properly cast a spell.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Hi,

Spells had better have limited uses, to counter the extra reliability. If the system doesn't practically limit the count of uses, that is a problem, and is a place where the system breaks down. I've seen this with invocations and breath effects (Summoning invocation, or the Dragon Magic slow breath effect).

Also, reliable needs to be looked at more carefully: The entire chain of tests must be looked at to determine whether a spell (or other effect) is truly reliable. Say, from 3.5E: Concentration; roll-to-hit or overcome-saving-throw; magic resistance, or augmented saves (Evasion, Mettle), or various resistances. Magic isn't nearly as reliable as it was presented.

(3.5E does have a problem in that Concentration is badly tuned, becoming a non-limiting feature after only a few levels.)

(There is still the potential issue of whether all of these features balance the outcomes: Unless carefully tuned, the outcomes will be unsatisfying at best, and just plain broken at worst. A potentially severe problem area, but a different problem area.)

There are rules variants which add failure chances. However, these are typically unused. For example, the failure chance for wearing armor. To reach next door: Overchanneling (from Psionics) seems to add the failure chance. I do think the armor system is very minimally integrated, with a great loss of interesting options to the game system. After all, wwhat arcane caster ever accepts the failure chance; and what arcane casters, except for limited specialists, even come close to learning how to wear armor?)

There are lots of variant magical systems (e.g., Chaos Magic) which add failure chances.

I do find it curious that other game systems (Rolemaster, WFRP, maybe Arcana Unearthed) have failure mechanics. You could add this to D&D, but, the other mechanics would need to be adjusted to balance the outcomes.

Thx!

TomB
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Originally Posted by Tony Vargas

The happy solution would have been for people to live and let live, and never started the edition war. I'd be happily playing well-supported 4e (and looking forward to a 5e in a another 3 or 4 years), you'd be happily playing 3.5, grognards would happily be playing well-supported retro-clones.

A happy solution to the double-standard would be for those harboring that prejudice to leave it at their tables, and not try to browbeat WotC into making the game force it on everyone else. It's not like you couldn't still apply the double-standard in an otherwise balanced game, you'd just make casters higher-level or ban non-caster abilities until they were suitably pathetic.
4e arrived before Pathfinder and created a lot of animus. You have to realize that there are people of my preferences who have been playing D&D since the OD&D days. So they have an emotional attachment. They don't like the idea of some upstarts coming in and totally changing the game and abandoning everything D&D stood for prior.
4e did not create anything but a somewhat improved version of D&D, it did not abandon anything but a few sacred cows that had been preventing those improvement. There are long-time D&Ders who appreciated having a better version of their old favorite game and liked it, and who have just as much emotional attachment to the franchise as those who don't.

The only difference is that those who preferred 3.5 were and are assured of ongoing support via the OGL. 4e took nothing away from them. Why could they not have shown some respect for their fellow-longtime D&D fans who shared their affection for the game, but didn't begrudge extending that affection to the new edition, and taken the live-and-let-live option?

You really think the alleged superiority of spellcasters has driven people away from D&D? How many? And what do they play now?
Not really the point. If you've been playing D&D for any length of time, chances are you have either found some way to enjoy the game in spite of the double-standard the OP is talking about (though it remains a negative), or you actually /like/ caster superiority.

D&D is such an enormously popular RPG, you would think that if even 1/4 of its players have been driven away by this issue, then a game that addressed it would have found tremendous traction in the marketplace.
D&D's relative popularity is due to it being the only RPG with mainstream name recognition, so most folks entering the hobby try D&D first. Those who find it's peculiarities off-putting might go looking for an alternate game, but they may also just decide that RPGs aren't for them, and never join the broader hobby. So, no, a game that 'fixes' one or more of D&D perennial issues (of which the 'double standard' in question is only one among many) wouldn't necessarily gain a huge following. Both because there are many such games competing for disaffected D&Ders, and because potential new gamers who start with D&D and are repelled by it may simply never try an RPG again.

The hobby has remained very small by mainstream standards for a very long time, in spite of everything the various owners of D&D's IP have tried to bring in new players.
 
Last edited:

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

I don't mind. I like this discussion.

Essentially I see D&D as a take 20 or take 10 action. A wizard can only prepare magic when not distracted at all. So they do everything very slow and have no fail chance.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
There are the mechanics for Read Scroll and Use Magic Device to consider: That adds in failure chances. Although, these are often for non-casters attempting to create a magic effect, not for casters using the mechanics.

A problem of the hide mechanic is the timing of the opposed roll mechanic, which obscures that the hide actually did succeed: Often, you hide earlier than an opponent makes their opposed roll. But, the hide action, if conditions are appropriate, automatically succeeds, just not with 100% certainty for all eventual observers. The conditions are similar to spell conditions: If you attempt to magic missile someone who is out of range, the spell fails. If you attempt to hide in plain side (oops: the opponent has dark vision; the concealment you thought you had is not there; or, you misjudged distance or line-of-sight), the hide attempt fails. Otherwise, the hide check actually does succeed, but with a chance of not being effective due to a later opposed roll.

Thx!

TomB
 

pemerton

Legend
The main limit on magic is availability.
Surely the fact that non-magical skills can be employed at will weighs into the scales here.
What started out as a discussion about verisimilitude now seems to have turned into a discussion of balance. But as [MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] points out, once you bring balance in as the main consideration there's no clear reason to think that the sniping halfling who can hide at will (with a successful roll) is a problem.

From the verisimilitude point of view, though, there is no reason why making spell casting require a check will cause any balance issues. The player can declare "I cast a spell" as an action at-will, provided that the character has at least one spell slot left; it's just that the declared action actually takes effect (and hence the slot is crossed off) if the check succeeds.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
Man, some incredibly awesome RPG systems don't even have rules at all for resolving actions that the PCs aren't involved in!

YMMV. Those same games would be unplayable to me.

I've been thinking about this response, and there is a playstyle difference that I find quite interesting here. This might be long winded, but there's a point eventually.

When I sit down to play a role playing game with other people, when the rubber hits the road so to speak, what I really care about is running an enjoyable game for the players, getting to the action (whether that be playacting or murderhoboing), and creating an exciting play experience.

One of those things that is important is player telegraphs, and one way you can read players is by looking at their character sheets. For example, if the ranger took Favored Enemy: Elephants then it's likely he's looking to be a big game hunter. If the rogue has lots of social skills, then he's looking for some intrigue. Likewise, a player who took the Lightfoot Halfling race wants to play a sneaky little guy who can hide really well. I want to give them that! I can use that to my advantage and give them lots of opportunities to sneak and hide, and if he wants to do that in combat, because that's what his race does then I am more than happy to go with it.

Second point is that, for me, the rules as I see them exist so that when a player wants their PC to do something that is risky, we have a common framework to see if that thing is successful. They aren't there to make DMing decisions for me or to constrain events that occur without PC interaction. When a PC isn't involved with something, then its just the DM playing with himself. It isn't until the PCs get involved in the action that the DM is playing with the payers. And, even then, everything outside the scope of the players' own actions are things that they're observing and that need not be influenced by randomness.

If an old man is trying to sneak past a goblin, and neither is a player's character, then I don't see why it would matter to the players or the DM whether the result of that action was resolved randomly or by fiat. I suppose you could try to claim that if the PCs have a vested interest in the survival of the NPC that the DM can use randomness, find that the NPC died, and then claim neutrality. But, then, my assumption is always that the DM and players interact upon the world in good faith. If the DM is operating in good faith, then he has no need to relinquish responsibility for actions that take place in the game. A DM who takes ownership of what is happening, I would think, would be much more even handed, thoughtful, and less capricious in their approach to events outside the PCs' control. In fact, they often lead the DM to involve players in those scenarios more often, leading to even more player agency.

So, then back to my original thought about what is important in the game at the table. I find the desire to pare down PC abilities (re: lightfooted halfling) while simultaneously focusing on the resolution of NPC actions as important to be somewhat the reverse of what is the focus at my table. For me and my games, the player is the important thing, not the NPC or the world or anything like that. Beyond the player everything else is secondary. I want rules that give the players lots of agency, and I think it is important to run a game with an eye toward giving the player abilities lots of spotlight and fun. NPCs are important to me so long as they are important to the players, and rules for them I can take or leave, whatever fits the situation.

This isn't to say that my way is right, of course. My thoughts are cultivated on the games I like best. And those games tend not to be Dungeons and Dragons nowadays. As my tastes have wandered to things like Fiasco, *World, FATE, and Dread I've changed my idea of what makes a good game considerably. I expect them to continue to change. It's discussion like this that help me analyze my thought process and help that process along.
 

Yet another option is to require checks to cast successfully. This is the option that many fantasy RPGs use - practically every one that I can think of that is not a derivative of D&D, plus quite a bit of 4e (which is a derivative of D&D!).

So require casters to make an arcana check to successfully cast any spell, and base the DC on spell level. Problem solved. I wouldn't object to playing in a game with that as a house rule. :)
 

@Sadras and @ExploderWizard , I understand both of your posts. However, they're relevant to interests in game design (resource scheduling/action resolution specifically) to facilitate a functional play experience. While I am very much sympathetic to that general plea, the framework that this point was being addressed was:



Hence, the double standard (because spellcraft doesn't suffer the same) and the problem in action resolution and narrative influence parity it creates.

I'm fine with fiat for the mundane component parts of spellcraft to exemplify awesome wizarding and to facilitate a functional play experience. But existing simultaneously in the same ruleset must be "say yes" a whole lot to relatively trivial aspects of fightercraft and roguecraft in order to exemplify awesome fightering and roguing. If we're only "rolling the dice" when (relative to the class's shtick) trivial fightercraft and trivial roguecraft actions are undertaken, then we have the aforementioned double standard (and its fallout on play).

An issue somewhat related is the dice trigger reflex. The feeling that every little thing requires a roll in order to happen. Ditch that and things are a bit smoother.
 

bert1000

First Post
The double-standard goes a lot further than that. It has magic doing things that, even in genre, it generally can't, and has non-magic unable to do thing that not only in genre, but even, demonstrably, in reality, it can.

The thing that annoys me the most is that the double standard is not presented upfront.

We'll see in 5e but in past editions when you read the entry for Fighter you got something like:

A Fighter is a master of the battlefield and weapons. He can stand toe to toe with the most powerful of monsters, even dragons. He can maintain his composure even when faced with unholy and demonic threats. At high levels, he is strength incarnate.

When you read the Rogue entry it's like:

A Rogue is a master of the shadows, as silent as the wind. Even magical traps and protections can not stop her from gaining access. She sees and hears everything. Although not the equal of others in a straight up fight, if she catches someone unawares, instant death.

Of course, the reality of the game mechanics do not support the "vision" at all.
 

Remove ads

Top