The Dukes of Hell

[Shemeska]

So, probably, they either switched off between Tiamat and Bel, or swear fealty to both, or are primarily the servants of one, but assist the other. You know though, given the fact that both dukes command companies of abishai, it does make sense that they would be working more with Tiamat.

It may just be me, but I would stray from taking some of the 1e material at face value so far as it concerned Tiamat and Baatezu in service to her. That material was predicated upon Tiamat being one of the Lords of the 9, which subsequent material retconned to oblivion. Given that she never held power within the diabolic heirarchy, except perhaps over some of the outcast devils on Avernus, it might be wise to either likewise retcon the alleigences of the devils listed under her in the 1e material, or rework them to mesh with the later lore. Ie. you could have them serving her on the authority of Bel or one of the members of the Dark 8; loaned to her as part of an agreement perhaps related to her watchdog status over the portal to Dis, etc.

I personally would avoid giving her much overt sway over any Baatezu, or make it clear that she was playing a balancing act with attempts to influence nobles in Bel's court yet remain in the clear, so to speak, of annoying the actual Lord of Avernus to the point of tempting the Baatezu to repeat what they did to Maglubiyet, etc. She has a definate place on Avernus and a rich history there, but I'd make clear the difference between her role and that of the actual diabolic heirarchy, which she has no official place within. This necessitates at least some reworking of the earliest material insofar as her influence is concerned.

Note also that Bel has no consort. He was the consort of Zariel at one point (IIRC), but it doesn’t seem like he has one of his own yet.

He still has Zariel. So technically... yeah... IYKWIMAITYD. Life cannot be pleasant for her.

 

[BOZ]

no, it probably isn't.

i can't totally write Tiamat out of the picture for having archdukes working for her, since FC2 had to go and explicitly state that Amduscias and Malphas serve her. but yeah, we can come up with another solution that modifies that situation somewhat.

 

[Shemeska]

i can't totally write Tiamat out of the picture for having archdukes working for her, since FC2 had to go and explicitly state that Amduscias and Malphas serve her. but yeah, we can come up with another solution that modifies that situation somewhat.

Of course.

It's finding a way to reconcile the why of their servitude to her given how her role has radically changed since the first conception way back when. But, that said, seeming contradictions can oftentimes lead to the most interesting and complex ideas.

 

[Ripzerai]

Here's an obscure one: the Devil Prince Glornoth the Maleficent, from Weapons of Legacy, page 65. I haven't the slightest idea how he might fit into the hierarchy.

Oh, and, from the same book, the fallen solar Merikel, "now a powerful lord in the Nine Hells." [page 117]

 

[Ripzerai]

d'oh! yeah, they sure were mentioned in that article. and yeah, i've been wondering that myself - if he was trying to weed people out of his court, why is everyone still there?

here's my idea. you know how the pit fiends in the Dark Eight get killed and replaced, their identities changed to match their predeccessor? well, we can apply that same system here...

The baatezu do that with the Dark Eight because they're trying to create the illusion of continuity and permanence in that august institution.

Mephistopheles, though, wants to do the opposite. He killed "Molikroth's" co-conspirators in order to make an example of those who would defy him. He would therefore want to advertise the discontinuity, letting it be known far and wide what happens to traitors. It seems like giving the replacements the same names as their disgraced predecessors as if nothing had happened would go against everything he's trying to do.

 

[Shade]

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in Dragon #337, we name-dropped the pit fiend Asgeroth, who is now Imix's greatest servant and general tasked with destroying Zaaman Rul. He's got ties to the fallen archdevil Moloch in Hell's political maneuvering, at least.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Though with the horrible set-up in Fiendish Codex II, that means he serves Bel. I really wish that book hadn't been published. For all its good qualities, some of it was just execrable.

The more variance in the extant published material, the less any uppity player can try and make assertions about what is really in hell, either planar geography or diabolic hierarchy while playing in my game.

 

[RainOfSteel]

The most reasonable explanation is that everything which has ever been written about the heirarchy of the nine hells is wrong, and dangerously so.

I agree. Some scraps of information may well be correct. But most of them are going to be wrong.

Tiamat boasts to some adventurers that she is the archduke(duchess) of Avernus, and this gets reported on the Prime Material.

Bel appears to lead the Dark Eight from a central fortress, and so other deduce that he is the archduke of Avernus.

The Dark Eight appear to lead vast hordes of devils, and so others have reported them as the rulers of the Nine Hells and either never knew about or dismissed the archdevils.

Asmodeus appears to rule Nessus, and further appears to make the archdevils dance to his whim, and so he is reported as the ruler of the Nine Hells.

Do you really think you know what is written on the Pact Primeval?

Truly obscure legend refers to Asmodeus' fall into the original unshaped Baator. However, other legends refer to the fact that Asmodeus was a functionary in the Nine Hells until he managed to overthrow his superiors, a passtime that is continually reported to be a favorite activity of the entire diabolic population.

Good luck figuring out the truth.

So, here we are in the very embodiment of lawful evilness, and titles have no fixed meaning, no traditional role, no force of law, but they are merely the whim of the ruler that bestows them. Since when does any lawful - evil or otherwise - rule by mere whim, or since when do thier subjects obey merely out of fear alone [...]

The USSR under Stalin.

[...] and since when does any lawful society not weigh its positions, entitlements, rights, duties, and responcibilities to a nicety.

I wouldn't accuse devils of worrying about niceties.

Some laws devils might be subject to without a choice, but such laws will be enforced by one form of might or another.

Laws that are not continually enforced with be circumvented whenever possible and/or convenient for a devil in question.

Lawful Evil is the very defintion of that which will attempt to circumvent the law and otherwise make a mockery of it for others while exploiting it for itself, even if it invented that law.

Either you have enfuedated someone or who haven't, and if you haven't you can't expect thier loyalty.

You can't expect diabolic loyalty that much, anyway. Every devil wants to advance themselves, pure and simple. Overthrowing one's superior is a normal course of events. Doing so and getting away with it may be something else entirely, but they all want to do it. Asmodeus is the target of every archdevil and most the dukes (the remaining dukes have sub-goals of overthrowing their immediate archdevil first).

 

[RainOfSteel]

in the meantime, i'm starting another thread, hoping to straighten a few things first to make it more easier to make more sense of this stuff.

OK. I think I learned everything from the other thread that I needed to learn for this little project.

What other topic? Link?

 

[RainOfSteel]

To summarize the history of the Lords of the Nine (rather than the history of Baator, per se): [...]

That's an excellent historical overview of the diabolic powers.

Thank you!

(One new set of information for the PCs to wonder about.)