The Elements of Magic - Teaser and Sampler (now with Illusion and Transform)

[Haganegiri]

Also, one thing I'd love to do is have fan involvement to create sample spells and post them in a new forum on these boards. We could sort the spells by type and MP cost, and eventually release a document with all the spells, so GM's wouldn't have to make up every bad guy spell on the fly.

well Im an insomniac with far too much time on my hands, I would be glad to help create sample rotes (i like the term Rote over spell, too much Mage the Acension for me implies more of a practiced and accomplished feeling to me, but this is a personaly opionion, not an open oil can for a flame war). all i have is the Illusion sampler but I will gladly come up with as many spells/rotes as I can and i'll have them posted by tommorow tonight.

oh yea, i have all the 4 Wizard Compendium books, I'll convert stuff from those while im at it just so i wont feel like i wasted all that money (bought all 4 like a week before 3rd was announced).

Any way i can get my hands on more of the real stuff?

 

[donm61873]

One thing we do plan is to include about 10 sample spells for each spell list, as a rough starting point. Some lists that are pretty straightforward, like compel and charm, will get fewer, while those with lots of options, like Transform and Evoke, will get a little more.

Aside from that, I don't quite know what you mean by advice for running EOM in a standard D&D game. If you plan to use both clerics and wizards and such, along with the EOM mage, then there really shouldn't be any problem. What specific issue do you want addressed?

I don't believe that EoM (at least in its current form) is very easy for a group to just "drop in", all other campaign elements remaining *by the book*.

I'm proposing such an appendix/web enhancement: something that does all the work for the PHB classes and spells (a lot of which is there). All too often, a cursory look at the EOM says: "where's mage armor? where's fire shield?" and this would basically say: here's the dropins for the SRD spells, quick subs for stuff like Rings of Wizardry, etc...


DonM.

 

[RangerWickett]

We'll already be doing that to a small degree. A lot of the sample spells in the revised version are recreations of D&D classics, but we realize that some things don't convert well, and after a certain point players shouldn't have a hard time making new spells of their own without relying on things they've done before.

The system should be different with EOM, but don't worry, we'll explain how to do some standard things you'd want in any system.

 

[Verequus]

No i said a bit uberpotent, I stated that i think they are perfectly fine and not overpowered. Potent meaning that with one or two Evoke list it covers being able to give battle support and not suck and be very useful with much flexibility (you can make cones, lines, fans, etc. too), and all other list can be other non combat stuff.

Firstly, the flexibility is included for every spell list, so EoM is potent in every spell list. Secondly, you could use some core spells which allow enough flexibility: Burning Hands, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball (for the 3-level gap I recommend an empowered and/or maximized Fireball) and a Wall of Fire for some other situations. I'd like to see a situation which can only overcome by Evoke Fire and not through a core fire spell. Thirdly, I don't believe that there is a difference between a "sorcercer" with some spell lists and a wizard with the matching selection of spells - the flexibility allows just to fill the gaps of the normal gaps. This potency is the same I envision wizards - not that they need to learn "exceptions from rules".

After some experimenting with some spells I discovered, that it is laboriuos to develop spells, because one needs to look at least at two spell lists: the effect spell list and the general list. Switching between the required lists is time-consuming. I think that EoM is the first magic system which needs computer power for easy developing, too - a nice computer program comes into my mind...

 

[Haganegiri]

Firstly, the flexibility is included for every spell list, so EoM is potent in every spell list. Secondly, you could use some core spells which allow enough flexibility: Burning Hands, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball (for the 3-level gap I recommend an empowered and/or maximized Fireball) and a Wall of Fire for some other situations. I'd like to see a situation which can only overcome by Evoke Fire and not through a core fire spell. Thirdly, I don't believe that there is a difference between a "sorcercer" with some spell lists and a wizard with the matching selection of spells - the flexibility allows just to fill the gaps of the normal gaps. This potency is the same I envision wizards - not that they need to learn "exceptions from rules".

Yes but as a sorceror those waste VERY precious spells known and you must do it for every spell level to stay up with damage output, whereas one evoke spell list is but a minor fraction and always scales with level. Wizards can learn infinite spells, but with the "fire and forget" system, your forced to waste precious spells per day on attack spells to make yourself useful in a combat, which means less use when you have that cool illusion spell that would of avoided the combat or a charm spell that would of helped dealing witht the haughty noble, but you only learned the combat spell this morning becasue you didnt know about the noble being held by the orcs, so oh well all those spells known wasted.

After some experimenting with some spells I discovered, that it is laboriuos to develop spells, because one needs to look at least at two spell lists: the effect spell list and the general list. Switching between the required lists is time-consuming. I think that EoM is the first magic system which needs computer power for easy developing, too - a nice computer program comes into my mind...

this just seems like your dead-set against the system and no real amount of discussion is going to change your mind regardless. I made about 8 sample illusions last night that was not difficult at all, and in fact it gave me a thrill finally being able to craft magic to my vision and do effects and rotes/spells >I< want to do, not being railroaded into them.

 

[mbgrove]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After some experimenting with some spells I discovered, that it is laboriuos to develop spells, because one needs to look at least at two spell lists: the effect spell list and the general list. Switching between the required lists is time-consuming. I think that EoM is the first magic system which needs computer power for easy developing, too - a nice computer program comes into my mind...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not a normal poster, just a lurker. However, I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in on this one...

I find it quite interesting that you almost need a computer program to help you out with the spell system. I know what you mean....

About 15 years ago (ack, that's scary to think about ::wry smile:, I worked on developing a new magic system. I called it the Spell-Weaver magic system. Why? Because they "wove" spells as they went along. They didn't have spells they had to memorize out of a book like Mages (as they were called then) did. My Spell-Weavers were slightly less powerful (under normal circumstances) than Mages, but MUCH, MUCH more versatile.

Enter EoM... As soon as I saw the first version, I bought it. It was somewhat like my original system, but much easier to work with because of the spell lists.

Enter EoM 2... This is probably what the Spell-Weaver magic system would have turned out like, had I decided to keep going. I did do some play-testing and such with them, but quite frankly, I got bogged down in all the details of making spells.

Spell-Weavers had Bases and Advantages. EoM2 has spell lists and the General area. (My Advantages were pretty much the General area, but broken up.) I called it mana, EoM2 calls it MPs. I called mine Book Spells, EoM2 calls them Signature Spells.

One of my failures was that I put some randomness in things. Every spell you cast required you to roll 2d10 + caster level + Int bonus to determine if you successfully cast the spell. This meant that you had "safe" spells (or safER spells), but could also throw some bigger stuff that might possibly blow up on you. I also had penalties for casting non-Book Spells (negatives to your roll).

Between having to roll for every spell, figuring out Book Spells, calculating what you had to roll for every spell, recalcing Book Spells when you went up a level, and coming up with spontaneous spells on the fly, things were just too tedious. Quite frankly, I decided that, in order to run a Spell-Weaver, I needed a computer program. At the time, I didn't have a computer, so it wasn't too terribly feasible.

The moral of the story? Don't try to outsmart yourself like I did. I had a WONDERFUL, diverse method of casting spells. I could do tiny effects with no range, tiny effects with a MASSIVE range (or area, etc.). I could emulate the low-level mage trying to cast a spell a little too powerful for himself, or an arch-mage casting a REALLY big spell as a, "I may be going down, but I can certainly take you and the surrounding area with me." type of thing. But... the simple truth of it was, the Spell-Weaver magic system was just too complex.

After buying and reading the first EoM, I had been toying with resurrecting the Spell-Weaver magic system and finishing it up, with a long, hard look at simplifying the system. But, after reading what RangerWicket had posted about EoM2, I have changed my mind.

I am very excited about EoM2 and the implications. I just want to stress that you need to make sure that you keep things playable. I created a system that was the most diverse system I had ever seen. It was also unplayable. Please make sure you don't follow the same path. ::wry smile::

And here ends my 2 cents. (With inflation, I think it turned out to be about $100. ::chuckle:: )

Michael

 

[Verequus]

Yes but as a sorceror those waste VERY precious spells known and you must do it for every spell level to stay up with damage output, whereas one evoke spell list is but a minor fraction and always scales with level. Wizards can learn infinite spells, but with the "fire and forget" system, your forced to waste precious spells per day on attack spells to make yourself useful in a combat, which means less use when you have that cool illusion spell that would of avoided the combat or a charm spell that would of helped dealing witht the haughty noble, but you only learned the combat spell this morning becasue you didnt know about the noble being held by the orcs, so oh well all those spells known wasted.

That's why the spell effects are very narrow defined - flexibility vs. power.

this just seems like your dead-set against the system and no real amount of discussion is going to change your mind regardless. I made about 8 sample illusions last night that was not difficult at all, and in fact it gave me a thrill finally being able to craft magic to my vision and do effects and rotes/spells >I< want to do, not being railroaded into them.

I'm not dead set against the system - I am even one the strongest supporters! Look into the other thread if you want to know my opinion. What I forgot to mention is that I had to scroll the word document (not the teaser) everytime (splitting the screen helped a little bit, but I had then only the half screen for both spell lists...) and I didn't print it out. So it may be easier to turn the pages than to scroll - at least it would minimize scrolling. Also I never said that EoM doesn't allow the shaping of magic to your vision - which sentence from me gave you that impression?

But it is a fact that for creating a spell you have to find every needed option and add the right amount of MPs - this can be done easily as preparation, but not while the game without computer help, because it is too time-consuming and holds up the game. That's why the signature spells exist - to constrain players and DMs alike to some simple, but easily swappable options.

Your post seems to be only a misunderstanding of my intentions which weren't absolutely clear. Maybe I'm a little worn out, because my comments about the whole file reached 10 pages. ;-)

 

[Haganegiri]

Yea dude we just started going in two diffrent directions there, its cool. Most of my later comments (about the shaping magic to my vision) was just an off hand compliment to the system, not aimed against you.

 

[RangerWickett]

So, which list do you want me to put up a teaser for next?

Abjure
Charm
Compel
Create
Evoke
Heal
Infuse
Move
Summon (actually, the rules for summon and create ended up pretty different, so we split them)
Transform

 

[Haganegiri]

So, which list do you want me to put up a teaser for next?

Transform.

"First you crack the shell, then you crack the nut inside" - Transformers the Movie.