D&D 5E The Grappler's Manual (2.0) - Grappling in 5th Edition

[Zene]

That is true. If you go that route, I'd recommend you aim for Fighter 1/ Bard 3 first. With advantage and one attack, you can at least grapple and throw opponents off of cliffs or take two rounds to knock them prone. At Fighter 2 / Bard 3 you unlock Action Surge, which allows you to lock down one opponent in one round at least once in a while (and combos really well with Earth Tremor). Then maybe go Fighter 4 / Bard 3 to pick up Tavern Brawler so you can pull off the one attack - trip - bonus action grapple combo. That's only 1 level later than a pure bard or barbarian/rogue would be in getting the ability to grapple and knock down an opponent in one turn.

Ah good call. Still, I think I'm leaning more toward the Barbarian/Rogue route. The earlier effectiveness and the jump/falling damage attack are what sold me (prone with movement, and still have actions/bonus actions? Heck yes). Plus no need to bump Cha is nice, and raging/sneaking fit the bugbear better than strategizing/barding. Though I still may pick up Fighter 3 later in my progression; seems like high-level Barb and Rogue stuff isn't quite as useful to a grappler once I get the basics down.

One question on that barb/rogue build - since you need a finesse weapon if you want to get sneak attack bonus damage, have you had any luck with coming up with DM-acceptable finesse improvised weapons? I think iron spikes as improvised daggers should be an easy sell. I'm also hoping to use a roasting skewer (like you'd spit-roast a chicken, or small pig, or gnome on) as an improvised rapier, and/or a rope with a small spike or caltrop tied to the end as an improvised whip (or maybe even length of chain). But I realize those may be tougher to convince a DM on. I play AL, so I'm expecting DM variation.

(For levels 4 and 5 though, while I have Tavern Brawler but no Sneak Attack to worry about, I'm going with a tree branch with various sharp pieces of iron driven through it as an improvised --and very bugbear-thematic-- maul.)

 

[Goken100]

One question on that barb/rogue build - since you need a finesse weapon if you want to get sneak attack bonus damage, have you had any luck with coming up with DM-acceptable finesse improvised weapons? I think iron spikes as improvised daggers should be an easy sell. I'm also hoping to use a roasting skewer (like you'd spit-roast a chicken, or small pig, or gnome on) as an improvised rapier, and/or a rope with a small spike or caltrop tied to the end as an improvised whip (or maybe even length of chain). But I realize those may be tougher to convince a DM on. I play AL, so I'm expecting DM variation.

(For levels 4 and 5 though, while I have Tavern Brawler but no Sneak Attack to worry about, I'm going with a tree branch with various sharp pieces of iron driven through it as an improvised --and very bugbear-thematic-- maul.)

I also play in AL and I can tell you, DMs already are a bit confused and put off by grappling because it's a bit unusual. Some need convincing that grappled opponents can't stand up from being prone, or that I can grapple two opponents at the same time if I have two free hands. So trying to convince one that my improvised spike is also finesse? Not only do I think that most DMs wouldn't buy that, I don't even buy that. Finesse is sort of the antithesis of what the Tavern Brawler is going for - hitting someone with a chair and them grabbing them by the shirt collar. I mean, is there any narrative explanation for why a Tavern Brawler with an iron spike is able to bonus action grapple but using a dagger he is not?
If you had a home game and you wanted to try to work out something with your DM, you might have a shot. But in AL? Asking for anything outside of the clear rules is actually a bit rude, and I'd suggest just staying to the clearly legal side of things.
For my character, he has a magic short sword that he pulls out when it's time to punish the unworthy. But otherwise he just sticks to punches and headbutts.

 

[Zene]

So trying to convince one that my improvised spike is also finesse? Not only do I think that most DMs wouldn't buy that, I don't even buy that.

Got it, makes sense.

I definitely don't want to stretch/break any rules.... I probably should have provided more background. I was specifically going by the PHB section on improvised weapons that says: "In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's discretion, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon... An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage".

I figured a sharpened iron spike is about as close to a dagger as you can get without being a dagger; and I thought that was actually pretty universally accepted since I've heard it used as an example by a couple different folks. That definitely might not be the case, though.

I'm actually kind of surprised at your response; this guide in the original post, as well as the builds you posted, seem to be all about getting creative to do cool things while still being firmly within the rules. I feel like this is right in line with that. But I do understand you're just trying to give helpful advice, and I do take it in that spirit.

I mean, is there any narrative explanation for why a Tavern Brawler with an iron spike is able to bonus action grapple but using a dagger he is not?

Well no, but similarly there's no real narrative explanation for why a Tavern Brawler can hit someone with a broken table leg and then bonus grapple, but can't hit someone with a club the same size, shape, weight, balance, etc. as the table leg and make a bonus grapple. Seems like it's more of a problem with the feat itself, than specifically the dagger/spike question. I suppose the one in-game explanation could be the element of surprise with an improvised weapon... but in that case, stabbing someone with a broken bottle should be just as effective in opening up a grapple attempt as hitting them with a chair. (Another possible explanation is just that the Tavern Brawler feat was written to encourage flavor, and have folks get creative with weapons, as opposed to just picking up the feat then using standard boring weapons.)

But in AL? Asking for anything outside of the clear rules is actually a bit rude, and I'd suggest just staying to the clearly legal side of things.

Yeah I agree I don't want to ask for something outside of the rules, or cause any unnecessary DM consternation in AL. And your point is well taken. Personally I don't see where any of the above is outside the rules, but still, I'll definitely want to be cautious, and not ask the DM too much for judgement calls when I don't need to. Especially since I fully expect I'll need to be educating/convincing many AL DMs on the details of grappling already. And my main goal will be to grapple, not dpr, so no big deal if I can't swing something that's both finesse and improvised.

 

[johnlent]

Here is the super grappler I built. He gets way better with more outside support instead of having to cast spells and drink potions with his actions, but still pretty damn effective.

1. Race: Human (variant)
2. Classes: Druid 6 (moon), Barbarian 6 (aspect of bear), Rogue 2, Fighter 2
3. Feats: Mobile
4. Pre-Cast: Longstrider.
5. Equipment: Horseshoes of Speed (i accept that an elk in boots is ridiculous), Potion of Growth (pre drunk), Potion of Speed, Belt of Storm Giant Strength
6. Round 1: Cast Spike Growth; action surge drink Potion of Speed. Wild shape into Giant Elk,
7. Round 2: grapple target, prone target
Results:
Speed: (Barbarian 10, Elk 60, Mobile 10, Longstrider 10, Horseshoes 30) X2(haste) = 240
Size: Gargantuan - Can drag large creatures without slowing.
Dash for Free (Haste), Dash as Bonus (Cunning Action), and Base Move.
Athletics Check Average: 10 (base) +10 (Expertise) +9 (Str) +5 (Enlarge) = 34
Max Drag Weight: 29 X 75 (4 legs) X 2(large) X 2 (huge) X 2 (gargantuan) X 2 (bear aspect) = 34,800 lbs (17.4 tons).
Round 2: Attack (grab) and Attack (shove prone). Then drag the target around the perimeter of the spikes. 240/5*3=144 squares, at 2d4 damage per square. 720 damage (no save).
Each subsequent round, since escape is effectively impossible for any medium creature in the game, you then deal 960 damage.
If you fighting a huge creature, the damage is effectively halved. Gargantuan creatures probably weigh too much to be dragged (at least according to the 3.5 rules http://www.dandwiki.com/…/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Sc…)
Also, the target is prone and cannot stand, so he is easy for allies to hit and has a difficult time hitting you.

 

[Colder]

How does the Giant Elk grapple without any arms?

 

[johnlent]

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=hPCdXQSuBT0

 

[johnlent]

Look up YouTube videos of elk fighting for dominance in thier herd. They grapple with antlers.

 

[Colder]

Seems to me like that method of grappling would require the target have antlers as well, but hey, I was recently told that humanoids can maintain grappling without using their hands so what do i know.

 

[johnlent]

Do you really think a 20 foot tall elk with a time foot rack couldn't pin someone medium sized down with its antlers?

 

[Colder]

Pinning is one thing, dragging things around is another matter entirely. The only way I could possibly see the elk "drag" something that isn't completely tangled up in its antlers is to basically bull-rush it, in which case you'd be doing massive amounts of damage to yourself as well. You've basically got a reverse cow-catcher on your face and you're the train.

Also, the antlers are so big at that point anything medium or smaller probably wouldn't have any trouble slipping in between them.

But that's not even getting into the actual rules. There are two sets of rules for grappling: those in the PHB and the sidebar in the MM. The PHB says you need a free hand to grapple, and the MM sidebar just says that some monsters have attacks that allow them to quickly grapple things. The giant elk has neither. JC later said on Twitter that he'd allow non-humanoids to grapple if they had a bite or an appendage suitable for it, but I don't think that antlers are.