D&D General The Gygaxian Origins of Drow and Some Thought on their Depiction As Villians

[Charlaquin]

Very interesting.

I think it is unfortunate that some people have issues with terms that others simply use as descriptive. Should the "descriptive" be important, though? I feel that depends on the context personally, but for descriptive use it is no different than if I describe someone as tall, blonde, short, old, or whatever.

I have been in situations myself where I've been called a "white guy" and frankly, it doesn't bother me at all because that is what I am. A man, who happens to have white skin. As for other terms that are meant to be offensive, they simply don't bother me personally. I understand others feel differently and I can respect that, but I also ask they they understand if I use such terms, it is descriptive and not meant to be offensive.

I will conclude simply by adding that what bothers me, honestly, is how people feel it is okay to use a term to refer to themselves but then insist others not use it as they feel it is offensive. If you don't want me to use the term, please stop using it yourself and thank you.

Reclaimed derogatory terms shouldn’t be used by people who have not been denigrated by them because they don’t have the proper context to understand exactly how it is offensive and how to use it inoffensively. Basically, don’t use bullying words if you don’t know how it feels to be bullied by them. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request at all.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Having Wildemount released, with its interpretation of the drow as moving away from Lolth's worship, adds a fresh perspective on the race. I still use drow as the classic villains depicted when I want to, but it is nice to see a society of drow that isn't "murder and torture, all the time!"

 

[Li Shenron]

Great OP!

FWIW, I've never associated drow with dark-skinned humans, much less anything african-american. I think I've always clearly described as coal-black with white hair and odd eyes color (yellow, red, pink...). Even though I have african-american friends with whom I've played D&D, no issue has ever come up about the drow color, or at least they didn't tell me... but naturally this is just a single person's experience.

The discussions these days have started to make me think there are two separate issues.

The first issue is certainly the black = evil equation. Black being associated with death or at least danger (i.e. darkness is dangerous) and therefore evil things in general is probably a very old idea in many cultures. It is going to be important to make sure the equation does not hold when it comes to the color of the skin. Besides WotC revisiting drows, what about having more white-colored evil creatures and black-colored good creatures?

The second issue is that of players' representation*. Worse than drow being black, is the fact that perhaps too many books depict elves (and halflings) as white by default, with rare exceptions. That's not good. Imagine an african-american or dark-skinned kid playing their first game of D&D, and being told how amazing elves are with their mastery of nature, magic and archery, and you can play one! Only for that kid to find no picture of elves to which they can identify to. I know that someone (white, of course) will jump up and say there are no pictures of white drow (or else) and so we're even... well, we're not even! A black kid receives the message that good elves are white, so if he wants to play a good elf, (s)he must imagine her/himself white, or alternatively play a good drow... except that it would be an outcast surrounded by lots of others as dark as her/him and all evil.

*this is not dissimilar to the issue of traditional lack of representation of female characters (although this was gradually improved at every new edition) or non-binary-gendered characters

I think it would be very beneficial if drow's "blackness" is clearly described to be nothing like human dark skin tones, and if at the same time we would get more artwork of elves/dwarves/halflings with said dark skin tones. WotC has already improved representation of non-white/westerner characters when depicting humans, maybe they need to do an effort for the same on the other traditional demihuman protagonists of the game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Reclaimed derogatory terms shouldn’t be used by people who have not been denigrated by them because they don’t have the proper context to understand exactly how it is offensive and how to use it inoffensively. Basically, don’t use bullying words if you don’t know how it feels to be bullied by them. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request at all.

Sure, but it is also not an unreasonable request to ask people understand use of a word is not necessarily derogatory. It works both ways.

And frankly, saying "don’t use bullying words if you don’t know how it feels to be bullied by them" sends the wrong message. People shouldn't be bullying others in any fashion.

 

[Charlaquin]

Having Wildemount released, with its interpretation of the drow as moving away from Lolth's worship, adds a fresh perspective on the race. I still use drow as the classic villains depicted when I want to, but it is nice to see a society of drow that isn't "murder and torture, all the time!"

My interpretation of drow was shamelessly stolen from the elves of Primeval Thule. In that setting, the elves are addicted to a drug that makes them sleep. They become obsessed with the experience of sleeping and having true dreams rather than the mental exercises of Trance, and while away the centuries in slumber while their human servants attend to the needs of their unconscious bodies. I drew a parallel between this and drow poison (which causes sleep) and decided to adapt the concept to my own setting. My drow use a similar sleep-inducing drug, derived from the venom from a particular kind of spider native to the Underdark, which they also use to make drow poison. Though, in my setting rather than being a nearly culturally-ubiquitous addiction that’s slowly causing the collapse of their society, it is used for religious purposes, to connect with their goddess. In their myths, a spider goddess taught their ancestors how to make this drug, and dreaming is accordingly a religious experience for them. Of course, non-drow elves say it was a spider demon who deceived them, luring them away from the true gods with this addictive dreaming poison.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sure, but it is also not an unreasonable request to ask people understand use of a word is not necessarily derogatory. It works both ways.

No. It is absolutely unreasonable to ask someone to just not be hurt by words that have been used to hurt them.

And frankly, saying "don’t use bullying words if you don’t know how it feels to be bullied by them" sends the wrong message. People shouldn't be bullying others in any fashion.

Obviously people shouldn’t be bullying others. But some people do. And some people who have been bullied feel comfortable using the words that their bullies used, in a new context. To paraphrase Game of Thrones, “Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.” But if you haven’t been bullied by those words, then you lack the necessary experience to recontextualize those words, as some who have been bullied by them may. You can’t use it like armor, because it’s never been a weapon against you. You may not mean to use it hurtfulky, but you can’t use it defensively. So you shouldn’t use it, lest you unintentionally hurt someone who has been hurt by it before.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No. It is absolutely unreasonable to ask someone to just not be hurt by words that have been used to hurt them.

Obviously people shouldn’t be bullying others. But some people do. And some people who have been bullied feel comfortable using the words that their bullies used, in a new context. To paraphrase Game of Thrones, “Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.” But if you haven’t been bullied by those words, then you lack the necessary experience to recontextualize those words, as some who have been bullied by them may. You can’t use it like armor, because it’s never been a weapon against you. You may not mean to use it hurtfulky, but you can’t use it defensively. So you shouldn’t use it, lest you unintentionally hurt someone who has been hurt by it before.

I am not going to stop using words in a perfectly normal meaning of the word simply because someone I am talking to might have been hurt by it. If I use a word in a descriptive sense to describe one person to the other, and I learn that word is offensive, I'll certainly apologize, but I am not going to walk on eggshells for the rest of the world just in case the person I am speaking to or about might be offended.

And if a word is offensive to someone, even if they are using it "in a new context", they are giving me license to use it "in a new context" just as they are. To refuse that, is to differentiate themselves on purpose and deny my rights. Things don't have to be unfair for one side to be fair for the other. I feel if I am not allowed to use a perfectly good word in a non-derogatory manner, neither should they. I see it as perpetuating the problem, not helping resolve it.

It reminds me, years ago, when people started saying someone was "40 years young" instead of "40 years old" because some people didn't like to be reminded they are getting older. I still don't say people are "years young" even if they are 5 years old.

If you don't like my view, please don't bother replying to my posts about it. I doubt either of us will lose any sleep over it.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I am not going to stop using words in a perfectly normal meaning of the word simply because someone I am talking to might have been hurt by it. If I use a word in a descriptive sense to describe one person to the other, and I learn that word is offensive, I'll certainly apologize, but I am not going to walk on eggshells for the rest of the world just in case the person I am speaking to or about might be offended.

I mean, I guess that separates you from me. I'm someone who won't even say "Merry Christmas" to a stranger, because for all I know they're Jewish. If I did it probably wouldn't offend them anyway, but why say it when "Happy Holidays," captures the same well wishes?

 

[Haldrik]

I mean, I guess that separates you from me. I'm someone who won't even say "Merry Christmas" to a stranger, because for all I know they're Jewish. If I did it probably wouldn't offend them anyway, but why say it when "Happy Holidays," captures the same well wishes?

If a person is wearing a cross on a necklace, I make a point to wish them a Merry Christmas. If I cant tell, I say Happy Holidays, and keep in mind that that includes secular New Years Eve.

If they are wearing a Magen David, of course, I wish them a Happy Hanuka.

 

[Eltab]

I had gotten the impression, paging through the books and modules as my FLGS stocked them in the 1980s (but not interested enough to buy or play the adventures) that Gygax created the Drow to be the opposite of the familiar Tolkein elf image: dark-skinned instead of light-skinned, led by females instead of males, mean instead of benevolent, prone to betrayal instead of cooperative, foes instead of allies. The world turned topsy-turvy.

I'm going to have to read the OP again, more carefully than I did those early adventures.