The Illusion of Powergaming

[Greg K]

The bottom line is, these are adventurers, the cream of the crop, the heroes of the saga unfolding. They should be doing everything in their power to maximize their chances to survive and thrive, be it on the battlefield, or in front of the King in dae Caestle.

Maybe that is how you view the game. Note everybody does. I know several groups that don't view characts as the cream of the crop or even professional adventureres. The characters may just be people with some training or a discovered talent that got swept up into events by chance.

 

[Reynard]

Maybe that is how you view the game. Note everybody does. I know several groups that don't view characts as the cream of the crop or even professional adventureres. The characters may just be people with some training or a discovered talent that got swept up into events by chance.

Then, obviously, they are playing it wrong.



All joking aside, playing D&D away from the game's basic assumptions is fine, but it is important to remember that when you deviate from those core assumptions, some changes are going to have to be made.

 

[Greg K]

All joking aside, playing D&D away from the game's basic assumptions is fine, but it is important to remember that when you deviate from those core assumptions, some changes are going to have to be made.

deleted

 

[Maine-iac!]

He should be the one coming down to the level of the others, or respectfully, looking for a group that plays to his style.

I'm referring to my group not anyone else's, but my points earlier are still valid across the board I think.

If not allowing that player to take the next progressive feat in a particular feat path, or enough ranks to max out a skill, or using certain spells and tactics to optimize success isn't your group's shtick (and you have a player who does so,) that's fine.

Again.....

Retropunishment isn't the answer.

Your previous point wasn't missed.....

 

[Maine-iac!]

Maybe that is how you view the game. Note everybody does. I know several groups that don't view characts as the cream of the crop or even professional adventureres. The characters may just be people with some training or a discovered talent that got swept up into events by chance.

You're right. I view the game, more or less so, as what is printed in the PHB 3.5E p.21, first full paragraph. Not everyone does. You know several groups that don't. I fail to see the relevance to my points.

 

[Maine-iac!]

Show me where the core assumption is that low level characters are the cream of the crop (unless you are starting beyond the first few levels). True, a first level PC may have a little more training than a non commoner NPC class, but I would not call a first level PC the cream of the crop as there are other people in the world equal to ( let alone more powerful) than they are. The only thing that truly makes first level PC special is that they are the hero/protagonist.

Also, can you tell me where it is stated that the core assumption is that the charcters are initially being trained to be professional adventurers. The classes are professions or vocations. How the characters become adventurers is an individual game decision based on the type of game/campaign the DM is running. If the DM is having them go town to town and the PC's are highering themselves out or if the PCs are seeking out various dungeons, then the professional adventurer title aookues. However, if someone gets swept into or ordered to participate in one big campaign expanding quest, I would call them adventurers, but not necessarily professional adventurers (at least not at the start).

I like the concept of the average joe turned adventurer, but that is little more than a campaign scenario and has little to do with powergaming. Again (as has been pointed out) that's just my take.

 

[DragonLancer]

If not allowing that player to take the next progressive feat in a particular feat path, or enough ranks to max out a skill, or using certain spells and tactics to optimize success isn't your group's shtick (and you have a player who does so,) that's fine.

Again.....

Retropunishment isn't the answer.

Your previous point wasn't missed.....

With respect, it was missed. At no point did I say that I refused the player or players access to a feat path or ranks. Never said that at all. I really don't know where you have that from.

 

[Maine-iac!]

By the same argument, because one guy wants to effectively play a demigod of combat munchkinness, everyone else has to play a level of game that they don't like?

again, point taken.

 

[Banshee16]

Except the ability to deal 100 points of damage a round doesnt prevent you from fleshing out a character.

Also, if it was a wizard doing it, no one would bat an eye. After all, they are INTENDED to be best. But a fighter? Ride the bench!

Why is a wizard getting optimized to do 100+ damage per round any less powergaming than trying to get that out of a fighter? They're both powergaming.

To me, the term "powergaming" doesn't *only* imply that one is trying to make a mechanically "uber" character....it's also that the player spends no time on roleplaying aspects...history, personality, goals, etc.

I have less of a problem with a twinked character if the player took the time to come up with an identity. Unfortunately, those players who in my group who have spent time twinking were also the weakest roleplayers, and the ones who sat there being bored when the rest of the group was roleplaying, and they weren't having a chance to show off just how mighty their character was, and how much better than everyone else's it was.

That's a significant part of my personal definition of a powergamer.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

But that is only of any use to a professional anyway.... Adventurers don't need professionals! They just kill things and take their stuff! As the number of actual professionals decrease (we remove the skill, and decimate the rest of the professionals with errant adventurers) the cost of each indiviual item increases, therefore, the DM doesn't have to give out more treasure, as the adventurers basic kit increases in value! This in turn allows those sucky adventurer types that actual spent a skill point or two on Profession before its ban to actually earn even more gp! Its a win-win scenario!

Adventurers "just kill things and take their stuff". There's a heck of a lot more to the game than that....

It can be about solving mysteries, politicking, tracking down a lost child, challenging the environment, etc. I've had plenty of sessions where nary a sword was drawn, and everyone still had a good time.

Banshee