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The Mésalliance. Part 2. (Updated 11/28)

Baron Opal

First Post
I'm not sure about the three pillars, but the Path of Lightning is present in the Kabbalah. From G-d, it is the flow of power that energizes and maintains the world. To G-d, it is the path that mystics follow when they wish to commune directly with the Source.

I've only just started reading about it.

Baron Opal
 

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Wrath of the Swarm

Banned
Banned
Not to be overly critical of this otherwise glorious Story Hour, but if this world is truly held to be inconsistent, Sep can do whatever he feels like and it will "fit".

Which is another way of saying that if reality is inconsistent, it isn't.
 

Re: Saizhan.


I've plundered pretty much every mystical tradition that exists for my campaign, so you'll find bits of many cropping up. Saizhan is based primarily on Buddhist Madhyamika, though.

The dialectic of negation certainly isn't mine - a 2nd century philosopher called Nagarjuna systematized it, and it was further refined by Candrakirti. The original basis is a series of four questions - the catuskoti - said to have been posed to the Buddha:

1) Whether the world is eternal, or no, or both, or neither.
2) Whether the world is finite, or infinite, or both, or neither.
3) Whether the Buddha exists after death, or not, or both, or neither.
4) Is the soul identical to the body, or different from it?

The Buddha refused to answer the questions, because any categorical statement would deny the possibilty of the other theses. This was 2000 years before Kant's antinomies, btw.

Point 3) is the one of most interest - the ens/non-ens question. In the SH this is the basis of the Ontological Paradox - note that the RL term 'Ontological Paradox' when used by Western philosophers has different connotations.

It seemed an interesting idea to superimpose basically Eastern philosophies (together with the accompanying idea that multiple truths are possible) onto an entrenched Western social model (with monotheism), and see what happened when players interacted with it.

This picture is much more important, however, and provided more inspiration than any philosophy.
 

tleilaxu

First Post
Sepulchrave II said:
The dialectic of negation certainly isn't mine - a 2nd century philosopher called Nagarjuna systematized it, and it was further refined by Candrakirti. The original basis is a series of four questions - the catuskoti - said to have been posed to the Buddha:.


:lol:

you, sir, are a very bad man for inflicting Nagarjuna on your players :D

"When your house is on fire, is it wise to discourse on the nature of fire? No, it is wise to put it out."
-majjhima-nikaya
 


Wrath of the Swarm

Banned
Banned
How long do you think it will take the players to apply saizhan to itself?

Taken to its logical end, they're going to have to make their philosophy encompass everything - good, evil, chaos, law - and negate everything in the process. But if they apply saizhan to the process of saizhan, they might realize they can resolve the paradoxes without unmaking the universe.
 

Pyske

Explorer
Wrath: You seem to have a different understanding of Saizhan than I do. (Possibly because I haven't been re-reading enough.) Care to elaborate / explain how you see Saizhan as unmaking the universe?

Cheiro: Thanks for the quotes. That was helpful for jogging my memory, and I hadn't had the time yet to go back and hunt for them.

Olive / Fergus: That's exactly the sort of speculation that's fun to read. Thanks.

Sep: Love the story, love the embedded philosophy. Thanks.

. . . . . . . -- Eric
 

Wrath of the Swarm said:
Saizhan is a process by which opposing concepts are brought together in a synthesis, yes?

By breaking down the boundaries between one thing and another, saizhan taken to its logical end incoporates and unifies all things. The resulting state which includes all concepts and thus can never be adequately described can equally be said to exclude all concepts. It's the totality, the unformed void, the emptiness that contains everything. It is to existence what Nirvana is to selfhood.

Such a state is compatible with all stories and thus is incompatible with all of them. If there are any characters or events about which any limited statements could be accurately made, saizhan is not complete.

Fortunately, applying saizhan to itself permits us to understand how the illusion of exclusive states arises from the totality.


Absolutely. If you take the premise

Not all truths are unequal

and then proceed to posit the idea that Saizhan is the ultimate truth, then you have created a position which is untenable. Saizhan must necessarily be a relative truth (not the 'Truth,' so to speak), otherwise its own, internal dialectic collapses.

Edit: I should add the fact that the distinction between truth and Truth is, itself, an empty concept - Saizhan reveals this to be the case.
 
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GneralTsao

First Post
Wrath of the Swarm said:
The resulting state which includes all concepts and thus can never be adequately described can equally be said to exclude all concepts. It's the totality, the unformed void, the emptiness that contains everything.

These lines and Sep's reply reminded me of the mathematical "abomination" debate around the 1920s and 30s, particularly the "Set of all sets that do not include themselves." This even seems to parallel saizhan from a mathematical sense: the set pretty much includes all of the universe (unless I misunderstand set theory, few sets that I can think of include themselves). Yet the fact that the set itself is left out of the set that includes all of existence implies that it actually represents absolute nothingness. And this is even before one considers that a contradiction is created between the very rules that govern the set. Godel eventually proved that an axiomatic system couldn't be both all-encompassing and internally consistent.

And this is why I love this story hour! Totality as nothingness!? Bwaaaaah! :headexplode:
 

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