D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[CreamCloud0]

why the sad face @CreamCloud0? My version supports all types of games, from fantasy to grim dark, to modern, etc. Why be said at more inclusion?

because as others have already mentioned, having 'magic and supernatural' mean 'literally anything not possible IRL' makes the terminology so vague as to be functionally meaningless for a fantasy based game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is... somehow even less compelling than a plain +x weapon.

Bottom line, I want to be able to do things. As in the same way a wizard can do things by casting fly or spider climb, or charm person. More numbers aren't all that important to me, especially since bounded accuracy means the dice are firmly in charge anyway.

I 100% agree. This is why I'm pushing Minigiant for more than "mastery means feats". I can give feats that say the word mastery, but if they aren't giving us interesting and useful abilities, then I don't see how they are going to take a character from "that is a level 4 concept" to "that is a level 17 concept".

And, honestly I truly hate how these discussions end up revolving so much around combat, because I don't think combat is actually where the worst gaps exist. There are gaps, and they need filled, but I don't think that filling them will solve the larger issues.

We either need to recognize that it is our narration and expectations that need to change (1st level characters are not farm boys, but highly skilled professionals) and/or we need to figure out what abilities we can add that cannot be added at low levels.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you're applying it to everything which is beyond real-world Earth capabilities

1. It has no bearing from a setting perspective. It'd be system-enforced metagaming,
2. In a typical fantasy setting you'd apply it to almost everything (down to hit points),
3. Who even is the exemplar 'mundane person' we're looking to use as our yardstick for this tag

1. The label is for the benefit of the players, not the PCs.

2. How much it would apply to depends on the setting, and potentially the power levels of the individuals to which to the label may apply. Hit points in particular are an abstraction and IMO should not be taken as proof of any supernatural prowess.

3. You don't need an exemplar. All you need is an understanding of what is possible without supernatural aid from the perspective of the RL players, and what isn't.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well I don't believe magic/spells are on a solid footing. I believe they are quite out of whack actually. So if I am redoing magic too, I would like to start with what I can know - i.e. mundane abilities and then build off of that.

Well then, we have some very fundamental disagreements.

So, it comes down to... at what level do you think a character should be as good as a trained soldier? Where are you setting your bounds? Because different games tackle that question VASTLY differently.

 

[dave2008]

That saying the fighter can shoot 100 arrows in a round is the bit that matters.

Whether it's mundane or magical is an irrelevance.

While I agree technically, we would be having this discussion if it didn't matter to some players.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Make sense to who?

Why can't you dodge a dragon's claw and shoot their eye without being supernatural?

Why must I be supernatural to know ancient Hobgoblin History to solve an optional puzzle?

In what way are those examples supernatural?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I just read the rules again and the jump action describes what you can do with no check. If its longer or higher than the prescribed distance (or if there is an obstacle) then you need a check. Seems like we have been doing it correctly and feeling empowered all along!

Spoiler: Jumping

Jumping​

Your Strength determines how far you can jump (bold red emphasis mine):
.

Long Jump. When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement.

This rule assumes that the height of your jump doesn't matter, such as a jump across a stream or chasm. At your DM's option, you must succeed on a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to clear a low obstacle (no taller than a quarter of the jump's distance), such as a hedge or low wall. Otherwise, you hit it.

When you land in difficult terrain, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to land on your feet. Otherwise, you land prone.

High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your DM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height.

In fact, the rules under ability scores support this as well (bold red emphasis mine):

Spoiler: Strength Checks

Strength Checks​

A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.

Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:

• You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off.
• You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
• You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.

One thing I do really dislike about the jumping rules is that there is zero guidance on how the athletics check affects the jump. That lack of guidance devastates any ability to go beyond them.

I have homebrewed an answer before in the past, just so players can have an understanding of what is possible.

 

[dave2008]

because as others have already mentioned, having 'magic and supernatural' mean 'literally anything not possible IRL' makes the terminology so vague as to be functionally meaningless for a fantasy based game.

I wouldn't have it any other way! No ideally, we develop different terms for ease of use

 

[Minigiant]

In what way are those examples supernatural?

They aren't.

But you said that level of power doesn't make sense for a mundane character.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then it's a valueless label for the characters in a fantasy setting.

Using that label, the fighter who shoots 100 arrows in a round can do so for the same reason that casters can cast spells for the same reason that a monk can stin..

But..

Only from a player perspective.

The characters would see the way they do things very differently.

Why would we want to define things in a fantasy world using a yardstick that is invisible and meaningless to that world's inhabitants?

Whoever said the label was for the PCs? They live in a world of magic. We do not.