D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Gammadoodler]

Yes, and...?

What isn't a bad thing?

I'm not upset. From my perspective everyone is upset that I want a little more sugar my tea. Why do care - it is my tea!

Really, why do you care that I would prefer a little more jargon / definition / clarity in my game rules. I mean why does it matter to you if I say a person lifting a 10 ton rock is a supernatural ability? I just don't understand why you care?


What is your point?

I responded to this thread initially with a very minor and narrowly focused comment. This discussion has gone way beyond what I ever intended. I apologize if I somehow offended you, but that was not my intent.

First, just wanna make sure you know that I'm not offended. Apologies if the tone of my post gave off that vibe.

Fantasy/Real world similarity isn't a bad thing.

"Upset" may not be exactly the right word..or maybe I didn't convey my meaning quite right there.

The point is, when you encounter a difference between the real world and the fantasy world, if that disturbs you in any way, it's kinda on you for selecting from the "different from the real world" genre.

 

[Scott Christian]

Because people don't seem to like the word "magic." It is no real difference to me. The broad idea of "fantasy" is not game jargon and I am more interested in game jargon.

I am even more interested in what I originally posted about: I would like there to be line in the game, after which certain actions taken are clearly something beyond what we can expect IRL. That is it. I don't really care what you call it, I am just interested in where the line is. I stated my preference in the 1st or 2nd page of this thread, but that was just my preference.

I beg to differ. Most players that dislike the term magic, dislike it for a narrow piece of the lore. The Conans and Wulfgars and Gimilis of the world. It does make the class feats very interesting when they try to describe them as non-magical. Like, you can clearly see the monk being Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. But the view of a champion is a little more obscure.

I wonder how much of it is the DM's description? I wonder if the new DM's Guide could give RP suggestions for non-magic class features? Or, just as neat, everything is magic all the time suggestions?

 

[Gammadoodler]

No one does…

Some people seem to need it in every place that isn't explicitly called out.

Taken to the logical limit, if no differences are explicitly called out then the fantasy world should be a perfect simulation of our own.

For ubiquitous convenience.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Well I’d counter no one is saying what can or cannot be included in a fantasy roleplaying game setting. The discussion is around the classification of the fictional elements and not around the whether something can happen in fiction.

Sure they are. If it doesn't have a magical explanation, they don't think it should be possible

So we either provide an explanation we do not think is necessary for the game (and, quite frankly, that is often eschewed in genre literature). Or it can't happen.

"You want martials with abilities beyond Earth expectations, make them cop to being magical in some way" is exactly how people have expressed it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They don't, but if they don't I want a reason why.

Because... it is a fantasy world.

Seriously, stop and think about this for a second. The movie Wolf Children features a wolf that became a human man, marrying a human woman, and her having two half-wolf children who can shift between wolf and human forms and must go on a journey of discovery about who they wish to be. How does it work? We don't know. Is magic real in this setting, can any other animals turn into people, can people turn into animals? We don't know. We can make guesses based off the japanese mythology that inspired the movie, but none of that matters.

OKay, take Harry Potter. Why is it that some people are born with the ability to use magic by speaking latin? We don't know. It is never explained. Why do you need a wand, well, you don't because Dumbledore doesn't, so why does everyone else? It is never explained. House Elves can do magic but it is completely different from wizard magic. How does that work? It is never explained.

Sometimes, it is useful for a story to offer some explanation. Sometimes we say magic is "the will and the word" or it is "the true name of things" or it is "the words of creation" or it is just "inner energy given exterior form" But the truth is... it is a fantasy series. The explanation is set dressing. And the more you demand from the explanation, the more damage you tend to do to the story.

Magic in DnD already is nonsensical, because of spell slots. Spell slots do not work, narratively, without a lot of explanation. But we don't need that explanation in game. Does it matter, truly, if the robot man with the sword is jumping up 20 ft because he is using magic or because his body is just that strong? No. It doesn't actually matter. Both explanations WORK.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I never said D&D was GOT. I was responding to your claim that the instant something is defined as "fantasy", there are no standards or expectations and anything can be anything, and furthermore that it's "weird" to think otherwise.

Can animals talk? No.
Can animals talk in fantasy? Yes.

Is water acid? No.
Can water be acid in fantasy? Yes.

Can trees create a desert in three minutes? No
Can a tree in a fantasy setting create a desert in three minutes? Yes

Is there a global storm of hurricane force winds that hits every saturday night? No
In a fantasy setting, can you have a global storm that hits with hurricane force winds every saturday night? Yes

Does eating metal give you superpowers? No
Can eating metal give you superpowers in fantasy? Yes.

Can you animate a suit of armor with a blood seal? No
In a fantasy setting, could a suit of armor be animated with a blood seal? Yes.

Can you step on a leaf mid-fall, and jump above the treetops without damaging the leaf? No.
In Fantasy can you step on a leaf mid-fall and jump above the treetops without damaging the leaf? Yes.


Sure, any single one of these questions can be answered no in a fantasy setting too... but also every single one of these is something I have read in a fantasy story. So, is every single thing possible in all fantasy all the time? No. Is anything possible in fantasy? Yes. And that is the point you keep crashing into. You keep saying "but if it isn't magic, it can't work that way"

But speaking the language of friend Bird does not require magic. It only requires that birds have a language you can speak. The old man who cooked the Ginger Bread man didn't use magic, the gingerbread man simply came to life. John Henry didn't grab his magic hammer to carve through that mountain, he just grabbed a second hammer. There are more things in storytelling than you are allowing to be expressed, simply because you don't like them.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Humans are explicitly positioned as

That... is the meaning of Fantasy.

The problem is... that's not the meaning of magic.

This is like squares and rectangles. Magic is fantastic, but not all fantastic things are magical.

I agree, I am not talking about everything in the fantasy world , only those things that are magical.

 

[Yaarel]

To be more specific, every mutant is the result of a naturally-occurring X-gene that grants them fantastic power.

For some of them, that's where it ends: Beast has fur, strength and agility, Wolverine has greatly accelerate healing.

Some of them have direct manipulation of natural forces: directed magnetism for Magneto, kinetic control for Gambit. Her own biological makeup for Mystique.

But then you get into things like 'access to a mystical force or energy' like any of the Darkforce users who don't matter except for mutate, Cloak, or Cyclops's access to a dimension of... force? Light? The punch dimension. It's the punch dimension. and that includes Scarlet Witch, whose mutant power is literally a greater control of magic that manifested early in the form of chaotic energy causing 'hex bolts'.

It is very clear though that mutant powers in general aren't magical. In fact, one of the first lines from Juggernaut in the 90's series was 'I'm not a mutant! My powers are magical".

When magic is natural, mutations are magical.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, tech has a rational, scientific, and logical explanation for what it does IRL.

PS - this was in the last sentence of the text you quoted.

Now there is the infamous quote that sufficiently advanced technology will appear like magic to those who don't understand it / are unaware of it. I mean, cell phones and what they can do would appear like magic to anyone 150 years ago or so.

This is a bad path to start down though.

Sanderson's Mistborn series involves people who can eat metal, burn that metal in their bodies, and produce effects. These effects are consistent, repeatable, and can be measured out in a very precise manner. Now, you are going to state that there is no logical or rational explanation for how burning metal in a human body can produce these effects.

Okay... so why does gravity exist? We know it does. We know it is the attraction between matter, but... why does that attraction exist? We... have no answer. It does. That's as much as we have figured out. There is no rational or logical explanation for fundamental facts.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

For no particular reason, I feel compelled to share this image

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