D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Why does the supernatural one deal X+1DX?

because that is the fiction I am trying to replicate. At some point you transcend natural ability (if you want to play those levels). In a game like 5e that would be post lvl 20 play. What I am suggesting is getting all your mundane goodness into 10 levels and then have 10 levels of supernatural goodness.

Now you can also have separate, but equal classes, that do what your talking about. However, I have been pretty clear, I thought, about what I wanted. I would still have those classes get more powerful beyond level 10 too.

 

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant , let's go back to the hawkeye example. Let's say my previous example (3 arrows at 3 targets, while jumping) is the height of that type of mundane martial prowess for someone with the right training, skills, and physical and mental abilities.

That's the core issue.
I don't think that is the limit for nonsupernatural combat skill.

But if I take your example...

What is the next step.

Hawkeye is also a master in swordmanship, improvised weapons, and unarmed combat.

So now you have to make someone who is a master is 3 or more styles before Tier4. And a be a exceptional acrobat.
Then there are other touchable mundane game attributes: Accuracy, Damage, Range, Movement, Resistence,

What if I want to shoot an arrow at every target within 30 feet (4e had a rouge skill that did this with daggers). So potentially 144 targets. Is that supernatural? It is the same mundane action. At some point your actions go beyond natural, that is want I want to capture. Using lvl 10 is my choice, for several reason, but it could be any level really.

Some high level abilities are supernatural. Others can be not.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

@Minigiant , let's go back to the hawkeye example. Let's say my previous example (3 arrows at 3 targets, while jumping) is the height of that type of mundane martial prowess for someone with the right training, skills, and physical and mental abilities.

What is the next step. What if I want to shoot an arrow at every target within 30 feet (4e had a rouge skill that did this with daggers). So potentially 144 targets. Is that supernatural? It is the same mundane action. At some point your actions go beyond natural, that is want I want to capture. Using lvl 10 is my choice, for several reason, but it could be any level really.

The Hunter Ranger has an ability called Volley to attack everyone within 10 feet of a point as an action, so 16 medium creatures, or even 64 tiny creatures if they're all crammed together (a lot more if you consider 3-D space).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not really.

Writers typically don't write the Normals to compete with the Supers in the same field. Because it often doesn't make sense in universe. If there are Super Strong magical people, you don't try to outstrong them without magic.

The issue with D&D is their poster boy for a Mundane Martial is a Clumsy Dumb Slow but Strong Tank. Unless you remove some of the negatives, you lock yourself into the archetype needing or being supernatural.

But that's what metacurrrency is. Making sure what the non-super characters are doing is just as important (often more so) than what the supers are doing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not saying you can't have the Supernatural.

I just want the "Snipe you for XDX bonus damage at 1000 feet away" like the high level nonsupernatural martials of various media.

How are they doing that? Give me an example.

 

[dave2008]

That's the core issue.
I don't think that is the limit for nonsupernatural combat skill.

But if I take your example...


Hawkeye is also a master in swordmanship, improvised weapons, and unarmed combat.

So now you have to make someone who is a master is 3 or more styles before Tier4. And a be a exceptional acrobat.
Then there are other touchable mundane game attributes: Accuracy, Damage, Range, Movement, Resistence,

OK, that is not what I am talking about. I have repeatedly said with all other things being equal. I am not suggesting taking away a broad swath of abilities.

Do you truly not understand or are you being obtuse on purpose? I really can't tell. I feel like I am being clear, but you keep bringing up things that having nothing to do with what I am talking about, like...

Some high level abilities are supernatural. Others can be not.

 

[dave2008]

The Hunter Ranger has an ability called Volley to attack everyone within 10 feet of a point as an action, so 16 medium creatures, or even 64 tiny creatures if they're all crammed together (a lot more if you consider 3-D space).

Yes, to me that would be supernatural. An awesome martial ability, but beyond the capabilities of the mundane.

 

[Yaarel]

The Fighter is extra good at combat.

For me the problem is, many Fighter fans say, the Fighter "cant have nice things" because it lacks magic.

The only way past this is, the Fighter absolutely is magical − therefore it will eventually get nice things.

 

[Stormonu]

This would not be my favorite way to do things, but you might be able to get the fork thusly:

Heroic Fighter - capable of reproducing record/olympic level feats and abilities. Abilities are repeatable ad infinitum. Has more magical attunement slots, as their gear is magical, not them (Arthur Pendragon, Lancelot, Odysseus, Perseus, Roland, Conan, Captain America, William Tell, Batman, etc.)

Mythic Fighter - capable of inhuman/legendary feats, but limited use (short rest, long rest, etc.) Has the normal number of magical attunement slots. Their abilities are supernatural, not so much their gear (Hercules, The Green Knight, Siegfried, Galahad, Achilles, Superman, Hawkeye, Samson, Gilgamesh, Cu Chuclainn, etc.)

 

[Chaosmancer]

"Well Ackually"

That's expertise in at least 2 skills and 2 tools and proficiency in 4-5 other skills according to your post. So you are looking at multiple feats and classes and DM help according to your post.

What are you talking about? I literally wrote down the build. What other classes? Monk? I left that off for a reason. Multiple feats? I took one feat.

Here is the break down again, more streamlined.

Variant Human Rogue 2
V. Human gives +1 skill and a feat. Using the Feat to get Skill Expert Investigation, which also gives that skill Expertise.

Background gives +2 skills, and using it to get Proficiency in Land Vehicles and Air Vehicles (which is practically worthless for any character, but you are insisting that driving these vehicles is vital)

Rogue gives Thieves Tool Proficiency. Expertise DOWNGRADED to give expertise to the Vehicle rules. Yes, this requires DM help, but you are WEAKENING your character to do this, and I only did so because you specifically demanded he was an expert at both. Rogue gives +4 skills.

That is seven skills total, taking: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, History, Perception, "Science", Medicine, Athletics

With this I have:

• An Expert Detective [Expertise in investigation]
• An Ace Pilot [Expertise Air Vehicles which is useless in DnD]
• An Expert Driver [Expertise Land Vehicles which is near useless in DnD]
• A Trained Ninja [Cunning Action, Sneak attack, Stealth, sleight of hand, Athletics and perception]
• A dabbler in multiple sciences and histories [Science skill equivalent to Arcana, history and medicine... which is actually MORE than a dabbler and makes him a trained scientist, archeologist, anthropologist and doctor]

The only thing I'm missing from your list is "one of the 10 best martial artists in the world" Mostly, because that is an arbitrary measurement and will immediately need high level because you claim that other martial artists must be high level, so since he is better than them, he needs to be higher level. But you are going to quickly run into the problem that the more levels of monk you take, the more magical and mystical he becomes.

So... literally I don't need any more feats to cover what you said, and I only need an arbitrary number of MAGICAL class levels to make your ultimate mundane warrior. You conception of broad skills is flawed on two fundamental levels, the first being you don't seem to actually know what is possible. Heck, Rogue 4 (Mastermind) and two levels of monk and I've covered literally almost every single skill. Even if you demand more expertise, if you accept just being a trained pilot and trained driver, then I can make a level 8 batman with 5 skills using expertise, and training in another six.

Level. Eight. And your only real defense currently is to either add to your list OR to argue that I need more monk levels because he needs to be an even better martial artist with more Ki and more magical abilities.