D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

Proficiency is not mastery.

It is the mark of being a skilled professional, and outside of combat styles and feats it is the limit.

So, what is proficiency to you then? Should we allow weapons to be Expertised? I can tell you, in bounded accuracy, giving a character a +6 to hit to make for a +17 leads to VERY boring fights.

That's core issue pushing the Supernatural Martial.

Because D&D is almost always completely designed around low levels. It's designed to created town guards, skirmish vets, and low scoundrels. The early class chassis is designed around though. Then you hit level 10 or so and run into big giants, demons, and dragons. But you are still running a town guard just with higher numbers.

So you say "My high level town guard is supernatural and can catch the giant's boulder" in lieu of actual features and to explain the situation.

Instead of "My warrior is so good at combat, a clumsily thrown boulder isn't going to hit him if he sees it coming"
"What about 3 boulders?"
"What ABOUT 3 boulders? I spent downtime sparring 5 v 1 with a fey princess's royal guards who have permanent glamors. That's a ROCK!"

sigh So we are back to wanting the exact same things, you just want to insist on calling it your specific definition. Unless you want to go back to 3.5 numbers where at a certain point no one bothers rolling dice because they need a 50 to hit you on the d20.

Because here's the immediate problem. Let's say I gave the Fighter a feat called "Untouchable" that allowed them to use a bonus action to make all attacks against them have disadvantage... that is a bonus action dodge. Monks use ki to do that, therefore that is a magical ability and it should be limited, how dare I break the game.

And that ALSO ONLY covers combat. My 15th level fighter getting hit by a giant's boulder is fine. My 15th level fighter approaching exploration with the attitude of "well... I can walk into the traps if you want?" while waiting on the wizard to cast fly on them so they can carry the bard who will cast invisibility so they can yadda yadda yadda, is not fine.

I want new abilities for the classes, and if the only way to get them is to demand they be supernatural classes first, fine.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Even assuming 'know how to not stab yourself with a club' is 'mastery' of a weapon, that guy still can't do stunts half as cool as Hawkeye because the rules actively fight cinematic action, and that's the problem.

Sure. But what is a stunt?

Let us take something I did with my level 3 Beast barbarian in a text game: "I said." He ran back down the hall, "to keep it." He bounced off one wall above the huntress, to dive down past the human, his tendrils balancing him in the parkour, "Away from her!" He lept spear first into the ghost, trying to distract it and drive it away from the Quenian. She didn't have the life force left to withstand a spirit's touch

So, is that a stunt? Jumping up and off a wall over an ally to stab an enemy? Because mechanically... I just accounted for difficult terrain in moving through an ally. I moved and attacked recklessly, just like normal. I just described it cinematically.

I think, if we were to mechanically implement stunts, they need to alter the mechanics. Hitting more enemies than expected, or debuffing them in a way. And some of these are already rules. Others are not. But, for example, the only way to currently make a strike that blinds an enemy, or a strike that stuns an enemy... are from magical martial characters. I think Weapon Masteries are going to help, but I think we need a clearer idea of "what stunts" before we start saying that we currently cannot do them.

 

[dave2008]

Sure

But I want to continue playing them to level 20.

Why not to level 30?

My issue with level 20 is that most groups don't get there and to fully realize batman/hawkeye type you would like need to be level 15-20. So most groups never actually get fulfill that fantasy. You keep it to 10 levels and the vast majority can play the characters they want

 

[dave2008]

My personal favorite at the moment would be classes go to level 1-10. Then you can choose a paragon class from level 11-20 (kind of like a prestige class from 3e). Paragon class would compliment your abilities and provide an explanation for how you are progressing to supernatural levels of power.

Yep, that is basically how I see it working too.

 

[FrogReaver]

It’s worth noting supernatural does not mean powerful. I could supernaturally summon a blade of grass into my hand. Whopeee!

So on some level this discussion is about balance of capabilities even if we try to stay really high conceptual level.

 

[dave2008]

you already can, more or less, but nobody tells the people with the magic class fantasies 'oh sorry you can only play below 10th level, or compromise your desired aesthetic' it's a double standard.

or maybe flip the standard on it's head, say you can't play any magic classes on a character below 10th level? how would people feel about that?

This is why an done with this tread. I have never discussed (in this thread) the issue of martials vs casters or martial vs caster balance. That is not what I am talking about at all. That is a separate issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe we should start here. What is level? IMO. Level is an arbitrary indicator of character power level.

*Versatility is a form of power.

Thus, similarly powerful characters should be similarly leveled. I don’t think this should be very controversial?

 

[FrogReaver]

This is why an done with this tread. I have never discussed (in this thread) the issue of martials vs casters or martial vs caster balance. That is not what I am talking about at all. That is a separate issue.

I’m puzzled by this, because I see all those issues as innately connected.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A story having the protagonists taking a different/harder path to the warlock in a fortress atop a cliff isn’t impacting the plot.

Claiming the wizard can make an easier path isn’t a story or plot issue but a balance issue. IMO of course.

Or take planar travel. In absence of a party wizard to send you to another plane there will always be an NPC or item or ritual that can if it’s important to the plot or story. Which thus means, the wizard simply has an easier time traveling where they want to be, but the plot isn’t really changed.


I think you’ve identified a good line for supernatural powers. Should martials have plot/story impacting supernatural powers?

I don’t think so. Though, I don’t see wizards as having many/‘if any’ of those either (see above).

Hard Disagree.

Let us say the party is high enough level to have Planeshift, and they are gathering allies for the fight. They remember that they had good interactions with a Fey Lord.

The martial characters... the best they could do is find someone magical to take them to the place, if that person even knows such high level magic. Which could be weeks of searching and travel.

The magical characters... can just go there and recruit that Fey Lord.

That is a huge story impact. Entire plot lines and challenges have fallen before spells like fly, speak with dead, invisibility, mage hand, ect ect. No martial character has ever been capable of doing the same with their skills and abilities.

 

[dave2008]

I’m puzzled by this, because I see all those issues as innately connected.

They are for whole game design, but I was only talking about one aspect. My thought: get martials correct and then modified casters to fit the martial model. So you balance the casters around the martials, not the other way around.