D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

I’ve gamed with my DM for 30 years and just trust him. Not sure what he does in his end

That's fair. I haven't had a DM that lasted more than a few years, and I'm often people's first DM. So I don't have that luxury.

 

[Minigiant]

A few things. Firstly, I would say we are not currently where we want to be, so feats have currently failed us in providing these things.

Secondly, every single feat is obtainable at 4th level, excepting humans who get them at 1st level, and there are no feat chains. Now, I personally feel that the lack of feat chains is a good thing, but it does hold back the concept. Because these two things mean that every single feat must be balanced and appropriate for a 4th level character to utilize.

Thirdly, a PC simply doesn't get enough feats to justify this, while fourthly, everyone has access to feats in their entirety, and many feats exist for giving or improving magic as well.

So, I suppose, if you wanted feats to be this solution, you could give more feats to martials, create high level feats that can only be taken past certain levels, and create feat chains that allow you to build to a greater whole... but I feel like that was the system in 3.X and it also failed, leading to the rise of the Book of the Nine Swords.

No need to chain them.

Just make a "Grandmaster of the Bow" feat with a level 10 prereq and go HAM.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, that is works great for a fantasy setting, but D&D has for long time been used for more than fantasy

I have no apologies for someone who wants to take the premier fantasy role-playing game and play a pure Science Fiction game. Space Fantasy? Sure. Hard Science Fiction? Nope, this isn't the game for it, and if you want to brute force it, you are already re-writing everything anyways.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Thank you for the clarification.

I guess I would argue that having the things I mentioned are things specifically are not available to the magic using classes you mentioned. I picked those for that reason. This is the part of the conversation where things become difficult for me because I have to remember what is custom rules vs stock. I guess my main answer to the criticism is mundane classes excel at solving problems without magic.

For example, the absolute best stealth a person can have is a wholly unmagical high level rogue. Magic has auras that can be detected, but rogues can become masters of stealth and misdirection. Evading guardians with active perceptive magic running are their main forte. It's not just stealth, but also learning how to subtly redirect attention away from where you are to where you are not. But that's custom.

I haven't defined anything that magic can not do, because by definition it can do anything. Given that magic is discrete bits in D&D, I do enforce the opportunity costs that come about when spells are chosen. Just because it can be done by magic doesn't mean that your character can.

But is a rogue actually better than a Bard with Expertise, to an obvious degree?

And, whether or not active magical perception would allow you to detect someone who is invisible is a pretty steep question. Detect Magic is a level 1 ritual. See Invisibility is a level 2 spell. Allowing Detect Magic to trump invisibility is a hard sell. Additionally, it requires magic. In a situation were there IS NOT magical detection, who is better? The invisible rat that was the druid, or the full-grown rogue? Sure, fine, if the enemy is specifically able to detect magic the rogue is better, but now you are just countering the magic with magic, making the second best option the better choice THIS TIME.

And sure, if you homebrew rules that say "rangers get a herd of magical beasts that follow them at level 11" then fine, they have that. But in the base game, that isn't a thing. And I've always been really hesitant to give abilities that give followers, because that often breaks immersion by suddenly having all these random people coming up to swear undying loyalty to the character.

* * * * *

To get back to the OP, I remember Minigiant asking once "what does a high level fighter look like"? Different thread, I think. Stormonu's post (#210) was a reasonable start. When I think about it, with my rules, a 12th level fighter would be able to take out up to 15 1-HD targets a round with a donkey's jawbone. They might be able to subdue a mid-sized dragon (up to 12-15 HD) on their own. They could command a troop of 120 soliders who were utterly loyal.

I also have a delineation between mundane, uncanny, preternatural, and supernatural / magical. In part this is because I want fighters and rogues to be completely non-magical but still be able to accomplish fantastic things. There are also a number of people in the real world who have accomplished amazing things because they were highly trained in just the right situation, phenomenally lucky, or both and survived.

I agree that after a while extra bonuses become superfluous and it is expanded capability that matters. A high level fighter or rogue just shouldn't need to roll on certain tasks unless there is a change of assumptions. A 12th level rogue just doesn't need to roll to open a padlock.

To answer the question a different way... I think a 12th level fighter is a mid-tier fighter. They should be faster, stronger, and tougher than the lower level fighters. I think they should have a presence that cannot be ignored (but can be suppressed).

I wonder about giving them an additional 5ft of reach on all melee weapons, or as we get towards levels 15 or higher if they should start ignoring attacks of opportunity. I want them to alter their surroundings, so that they can affect exploration challenges in a bigger way. They should be dynamic and control a battlefield with their prescence.

I'm just not sure how to accomplish all of this, without just throwing another dozen abilities on the pile.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I’m speaking about how the game has been played for the 30yrs I’ve been playing.

You realize that the game has changed fundamentally 5-27 times, at least four of which were in that 30 years, right?

And that we're speaking specifically about the current iteration, which has only existed for a third of your time with the brand name?

 

[Chaosmancer]

1. More Feats for Martial characters
2. Tier 3 Feats
3. Tier 4 Feats

Heck I'll be okay with Tier 3 & 4 Magical and Supernatural Feats.

I was greatly disappointed by the loss of Epic Boon Feats.

That do WHAT!? What does "Tier three feat" even mean? Does it mean I can at-will behead all enemies with 10 hp within thirty feat of me, or does it mean that I get +1 Dodge AC? You keep giving me categories, but I don't know what that means.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No need to chain them.

Just make a "Grandmaster of the Bow" feat with a level 10 prereq and go HAM.

Cool

Grandmaster of the Bow: Prereq Level 10.
You can make 16 attacks with any longbow or shortbow you have as a single attack action.


Does that work? No? THEN WHAT DO YOU WANT THIS TO ACCOMPLISH!

I can name feats and give them pre-reqs all day long, and sure, this can work though I would say it should be a pre-req of 12, since no one gets a feat at level 10. But what does it mean? What should it accomplish?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

You realize that the game has changed fundamentally 5-27 times, at least four of which were in that 30 years, right?

Yes, that is why flexibility is important. Thank you for pointing that out.

Add that to the fact there are dozens of settings and styles of play for 5e in print now. I’m pretty confident D&D will continue to be a multi-genre game for many more years

And that we're speaking specifically about the current iteration,

I never was.

which has only existed for a third of your time with the brand name?

Not sure why that is relevant

 

[Minigiant]

Cool

Grandmaster of the Bow: Prereq Level 10.
You can make 16 attacks with any longbow or shortbow you have as a single attack action.


Does that work? No? THEN WHAT DO YOU WANT THIS TO ACCOMPLISH!

I can name feats and give them pre-reqs all day long, and sure, this can work though I would say it should be a pre-req of 12, since no one gets a feat at level 10. But what does it mean? What should it accomplish?

I was thinking more like sacrificing damage for movement reduction, suppression fire, and crafting special arrowheads.

You herd a crowd of foes for for your ally's AOE.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I have no apologies for someone who wants to take the premier fantasy role-playing game and play a pure Science Fiction game. Space Fantasy? Sure. Hard Science Fiction? Nope, this isn't the game for it, and if you want to brute force it, you are already re-writing everything anyways.

What about grimdark or low magic GoT style game or heck LotR style?