D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Gammadoodler]

Except the game rules don't change setting to setting. And the PCs can act on that information already.

Again, there has never been any debate about spellcasting being supernatural. Not once. Even though it is completely ubiquitous in the setting, and the players can use knowledge about spellcasting in the game. Why would it be any different if we started adding abilities for martial characters?

I'm fully on board for adding martial abilities. I just don't care to see them coded as either magic or mundane when it isn't necessary.

Some people seem to think that the fighter must be flavored a particular way to allow for mechanics beyond the basic warrior.

I disagree.

The Oath of Ancients Paladin abilities have no tie whatsoever to their Oath. And yet their abilities in and of themselves, are powerful, and flavorful enough to tell you what the class is about, despite the missing connection to the Oath.

The Fighter should be treated at least as well.

 

[Baron Opal II]

But is a rogue actually better than a Bard with Expertise, to an obvious degree?

If they're not, they should be. No one should be better in stealth than the rogue. If there is another class that is, that is a flaw in the game.

Allowing Detect Magic to trump invisibility is a hard sell.

It doesn't. This is assuming higher tier characters.

In a situation were there IS NOT magical detection, who is better? The invisible rat that was the druid, or the full-grown rogue?

At 6th level, the druid. At 12th+, the rogue.

Sure, fine, if the enemy is specifically able to detect magic the rogue is better, but now you are just countering the magic with magic, making the second best option the better choice THIS TIME.

Everything is situational.

And sure, if you homebrew rules that say "rangers get a herd of magical beasts that follow them at level 11" then fine, they have that. But in the base game, that isn't a thing. And I've always been really hesitant to give abilities that give followers, because that often breaks immersion by suddenly having all these random people coming up to swear undying loyalty to the character.

No, I have made many changes because I was greatly dissatisfied with aspects of the base game.
I don't find the arrival of loyal followers immersion breaking because fighters who follow the path of the banner know it is coming and that there are other aspects that develop as time goes on and levels increase.

To answer the question a different way... I think a 12th level fighter is a mid-tier fighter. They should be faster, stronger, and tougher than the lower level fighters. I think they should have a presence that cannot be ignored (but can be suppressed).

I consider it more border of third tier of three. I split levels into groups of 6, mostly.
Otherwise I concur.

I'm just not sure how to accomplish all of this, without just throwing another dozen abilities on the pile.

Make sub-classes that don't suck, or throw them out completely and go with prestige classes.
I do not have a complete selection of sub-classes yet for all classes. Getting there.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Sure, but wouldn't it just be easier for everyone if the game designers actually wrote the rules in the book instead of having the GM to invent them? Like that's what we are paying them for.

As 4E taught us, rules limit DMs. The game books should be as vague as possible so the DM can run the game the way their judgement leads them.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

What about grimdark or low magic GoT style game or heck LotR style?

This is a poor system for those flavors. Low magic in particular.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

As 4E taught us, rules limit DMs. The game books should be as vague as possible so the DM can run the game the way their judgement leads them.

Ahh yes, as we all know the best rules are a blank piece of paper so the DM can do whatever they want!

 

[Chaosmancer]

I was thinking more like sacrificing damage for movement reduction, suppression fire, and crafting special arrowheads.

You herd a crowd of foes for for your ally's AOE.

Okay. I'm not sure I agree with needing a feat to craft special arrowheads. Feels like a thing that we can just let tools do, if we have a better crafting system.

But movement reduction and suppression fire. Cool.

2024 playtest has show us movement reduction as part of weapon mastery, for level 1 characters. It doesn't stack, but that is for obvious reasons. Do you think a level 10 character with a feat should be able to reduce speed more?

And what is suppression fire supposed to do?

 

[Chaosmancer]

What about grimdark or low magic GoT style game or heck LotR style?

Grimdark is tone, DnD can do it okay, you just need to keep the tone in mind.

Low Magic Game of Thrones style? DnD doesn't work for that. At all. The sheer amount of things you need to remove or change for that to even be possible is staggering.

Same with a low magic Lord of the Rings style. DnD is a bad game engine for that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm fully on board for adding martial abilities. I just don't care to see them coded as either magic or mundane when it isn't necessary.

Some people seem to think that the fighter must be flavored a particular way to allow for mechanics beyond the basic warrior.

I disagree.

The Oath of Ancients Paladin abilities have no tie whatsoever to their Oath. And yet their abilities in and of themselves, are powerful, and flavorful enough to tell you what the class is about, despite the missing connection to the Oath.

The Fighter should be treated at least as well.

Sure, I don't particularly care about the flavor. Problem is, you start asking for things like being able to destroy walls with your spear, or punch through wooden walls with an arrow, or jump really high... and people start demanding it is supernatural.

I'm fine with "a warrior's spirit" and various ki/background magical radiation explanations triggered by training and intense emotion. And if that is the easiest path to get to the things I want from the fighter and the rogue... I'll do it. Because it seems that is the only way I'll stop being asked why the fighter should be able to do this fantasy/mythical feat in my high level fantasy game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If they're not, they should be. No one should be better in stealth than the rogue. If there is another class that is, that is a flaw in the game.

Multiple classes that are, and arguably quite a few that are better. Because rogues have to play by the rules, and are not allowed to cheat.

It doesn't. This is assuming higher tier characters.

So how are the guards detecting magic? That's not a normal thing in the game, so I'm not sure how you are wanting this to work, or why it would work.

At 6th level, the druid. At 12th+, the rogue.

Okay, other than "my guards automatically detect active magical effects within 60ft of them" how does the rogue get better at sneaking around than an invisible rat inside the walls of the castle?

Everything is situational.

True, but if your situation is "because magic has made the magical situation untenable" then... your mundane situation isn't actually better, it just isn't currently countered.

And do you want to now how to counter a rogue? Well lit, clear hallways with guards posted at the end. Rogues can't hide without cover. Rogues can't hide if they are in plain sight of an enemy. And if your super secure site is already using magical countermeasures to magical stealth, then a few extra torches and stationary guards aren't about to be beyond them.

No, I have made many changes because I was greatly dissatisfied with aspects of the base game.
I don't find the arrival of loyal followers immersion breaking because fighters who follow the path of the banner know it is coming and that there are other aspects that develop as time goes on and levels increase.

Your homebrew isn't really relevant to the current state of the game, and how it currently functions.

Also, what is the path of the banner? Why does my fighter follow it? How do they know where I am when we've spent the last six months deep in the forbidden desert and come across none of these people before? Why do they suddenly arrive? What if the game is about political intrigue and stealth, and the party DOESN'T want their deeds spread around for the glory of the fighter to get his own personal brute squad because it gives their enemies too much leverage?

There are so many situations where "I'm level 9 now, so I get 100 followers" just does not make any sense whatsoever. Especially if no one else is getting any.

I consider it more border of third tier of three. I split levels into groups of 6, mostly.
Otherwise I concur.

Make sub-classes that don't suck, or throw them out completely and go with prestige classes.
I do not have a complete selection of sub-classes yet for all classes. Getting there.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Most of the fighter subclasses just need a little bit of polish. I could show you what I did for them a few years ago, before One DnD started changing things. Also, prestige classes are a WHOLE other kettle of fish, and unless you are getting prestige class levels on top of your normal levels, they don't seem like they are a better solution than just rewriting the base class.

So, I really think working in the base class is the best place to start, because there is a lot of space that can be utilized.

 

[Chaosmancer]

As 4E taught us, rules limit DMs. The game books should be as vague as possible so the DM can run the game the way their judgement leads them.

4e? Don't you mean 3.5? That game had rules for everything.