D&D 4E The math behind power attack and why it needs to be redone in 4e

[Mathew_Freeman]

Regardless of the supoptimal nature of PA or not, if you don't power attack you won't ever get to see the look on the DM's face when you score a critical hit with a greataxe and kill his prized NPC Uber-bad-guy in one hit.

And that's worth a lot of misses in other sessions.

 

[Najo]

You left out crits.

Also, when the damage is 1d8+15, the math works out a lot better. Who attacks an AC 26 monster with a 1d8+3 attack?

Crits don't change the effect of power attack I am trying to show.

 

[Najo]

oh, and it is very very common for fighters in the 7+ level range to hit with attacks much lower than 11, so that also helps.

And DR also factors in significantly

Oh yeah, and the fun of a massive hit.

Again, this doesn't affect the math on power attack.

DR doesn't effect to hit chance, so how does it factor in other than how it factors in with ALL damage?

Massive hit is an optional rule.

 

[Najo]

There is no need to post what everyone else supporting my argument already did. Power attack is a terrible feat:

1) According to the math, most of the time it is bad to use (not a high strenght, high attack bonus, raging barbarian)

2) For new players it is confusing

3) Low - mid level characters it barely works and then doesn't do anything.

4) It encourages everything we are seeing on this board - everything from players just maxing it out all the time (which is....well, not bright), using their gut (which is less not bright but still dim), using math tables (which is annoying), using it as a prereq (which is OK, but boring), using it with a maxed out, raging, high level, high stength, two-hand axe whielding death machine (which is power gaming and far from proving the feat is fine when its only good use is in such a narrow application).

All of the points are proving the feat needs work, but it could well be one of the most loved feats. I feel that is because of the elegance it represents than actually embodies.

If you are a 1st level character, and you take power attack. You should get some benefit from it and not be confused if your are playing your first game of D&D. Power attack should be fun to use, and not hurting your party because you fail to see the math involved. That taking -10 to hit to get +10 to damage is hurting your damage with every attack. That isn't fair to the party having to put up with your need to miss 10 times in a row, just so you can get a rush on the one hit with huge damage.

That is all power attack really does, feeds the ego of the mathmatically challenged. At least it looks neat while doing it.

 

[Najo]

I still don't get how Byron thinks damage reduction works into this math either. Someone help me with that one

 

[Wolfspider]

There is no need to post what everyone else supporting my argument already did. Power attack is a terrible feat:

SNIP SNIP SNIP

That is all power attack really does, feeds the ego of the mathmatically challenged. At least it looks neat while doing it.

Wow, Najo, I think you've won the argument! Congratulations! Woo hoo! You go! Give me an N! Give me an A! Give me a J! Give me an O! NAJO! NAJO! NAJO! Go go Najo math powers!

Of course, you didn't have to be so insulting while doing it. You did a good job of presenting the numbers, but that whole "mathmatically challenged" bit was tacky.

Just to spite you, I'm going to rename Power Attack in my games as "Najo's Awesome Attack." And every time one of my player's kills a monster from doing awesome damage this way, we will all raise a glass of Mountain Dew and toast you and your indisputable proof that Power Attack--excuse me, "Najo's Awesome Attack"--is a terrible feat.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I still don't get how Byron thinks damage reduction works into this math either. Someone help me with that one

With damage reduction, doing lots of damage becomes better. Lets compare an attack that does 20 points of damage to an attack that does 10.

No DR - 20 is twice as good as 10
5 DR - 20 is three times better than 10 (15 damage vs. 5 damage)
10 DR - 20 is infinitely better than 10 (10 damage vs. 0 damage)

Power Attack helps you to do lots of damage and is thus better against a DR foe than it would be against a non-DR one.

 

[Cadfan]

Again, neither I nor my players get hung up on "optimal". What I said was it was obvious was not whether or not you are at the optimum, but whether or not you were being penalized.

Fine. Drop the word "optimal" out of my post, and its still true. You're the one getting hung up here.

You can't calculate whether power attacking is a good idea or not without knowing what your average damage per hit is. The ONLY time you can know whether power attacking is a good idea without knowing average damage per hit is when a roll of a natural one would still reach or exceed the target's armor class, and even then, you ONLY know that its a good idea to power attack until you hit on a natural roll of two.

For any attack other than that, you must know your average damage per hit to know whether power attack is a wise choice.

Editted to add: Actually, there's one other case where you don't need to know average damage per hit. If you only hit on a natural 20, you might as well power attack for all you're worth. You'll still be hitting on a 20.

 

[Najo]

Wow, Najo, I think you've won the argument! Congratulations! Woo hoo! You go! Give me an N! Give me an A! Give me a J! Give me an O! NAJO! NAJO! NAJO! Go go Najo math powers!

Of course, you didn't have to be so insulting while doing it. You did a good job of presenting the numbers, but that whole "mathmatically challenged" bit was tacky.

Just to spite you, I'm going to rename Power Attack in my games as "Najo's Awesome Attack." And every time one of my player's kills a monster from doing awesome damage this way, we will all raise a glass of Mountain Dew and toast you and your indisputable proof that Power Attack--excuse me, "Najo's Awesome Attack"--is a terrible feat.

I really didn't mean to come off that rude, I was trying to be playful. I had a long day at work, so give me a break. We can still call it najo's awesome attack though if you like.

We can start a thread about another feat and name it after you, do you want cleave or sunder?

 

[Najo]

With damage reduction, doing lots of damage becomes better. Lets compare an attack that does 20 points of damage to an attack that does 10.

No DR - 20 is twice as good as 10
5 DR - 20 is three times better than 10 (15 damage vs. 5 damage)
10 DR - 20 is infinitely better than 10 (10 damage vs. 0 damage)

Power Attack helps you to do lots of damage and is thus better against a DR foe than it would be against a non-DR one.

I got that part. I was, yet again, being playful and sarcastic (hence the ) and it back fired Still, the damage reduction doesn't play in to the mathematics of the feat until the final damage is determined, at that point it still doesn't matter, because we are showing how power attack effects average damage generated before applying it to the monster. Whether or not there is DR doesn't change those odds.