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The Mystery of The katana

Korgoth

First Post
I like mauls.

Swords are great cutlery.

But mauls for the massive amounts of structural damage wins.

Well, as has been observed a sword is largely a sidearm (except maybe for a few exceptions such as the Romans and the Celts, etc.). Usually a primary weapon will be something that has more reach, like a lance (or xyston), spear, pike, polearm, etc.

Just to clarify, when you say "maul" are you talking about the leaden mallets caried by English longbowmen at Agincourt? They seem to have been a dual-purpose implement inasmuch as they were mainly used to pound in archery stakes (semi-portable field works meant to discourage the mounted charge), but could also be employed as weapons.

There's a decent page about them here:
A Commonplace Book: Archer's Mauls

At the bottom there's something about a 25-pounder from the Battle of the Thirty. That's a reference to the weapon carried by Sir Thomas Billefort (or Bellefort) for the Anglo-Breton team. There's a reference to it in Archery (The Badminton Library, by C.J. Longman and Col. H. Walrond, 1894) which in turn refers to d'Argentre's L'histoire de Bretaigne.

I kind of doubt Bellefort/Billefort used a maul that heavy, but perhaps you can track down d'Argentre's history! It's from 1588 but may be floating around somewhere.*

Learn about the historian here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_d'Argentré

*EDIT: Found it:
http://www.archive.org/details/abregdelhistoir00argegoog

Unfortunately, I'm a loser who hasn't yet learned to read French. Bonne chance.
 
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Diamond Cross

Banned
Banned
Just to clarify, when you say "maul" are you talking about the leaden mallets caried by English longbowmen at Agincourt? They seem to have been a dual-purpose implement inasmuch as they were mainly used to pound in archery stakes (semi-portable field works meant to discourage the mounted charge), but could also be employed as weapons.


Well, I don't know that much about mauls.

For me a maul is that weapon used by that guy in Conan The Barbarian that severly damaged the columns in the movie when Conan fought those two muscle men who worked for Thulsa Doom.

And is also featured weapon on the cover of Warhammer FRPG second edition.
 

Korgoth

First Post
Well, I don't know that much about mauls.

For me a maul is that weapon used by that guy in Conan The Barbarian that severly damaged the columns in the movie when Conan fought those two muscle men who worked for Thulsa Doom.

And is also featured weapon on the cover of Warhammer FRPG second edition.

That Conan weapon is just made up. The problem with a superheavy weapon like that is that it isn't actually very threatening in battle because you're unable to swing it with any kind of lethal force. It's a problem with the limits of human strength (which comes down to the way our bones and muscles are made) and basic physical principles of force and leverage.

I saw a Youtube video one time of a guy (fairly big) who forged a "buster sword" like Cloud had in Final Fantasy VII. Cloud's advantage is that he exists in a fictional world of animated houses that are wandering monsters and other things that are totally impossible. He makes the lack of real world physics work for him. We don't have that ability! In the video, the guy tries to use the "buster sword" to chop up a wooden pallet. He is barely able to damage it and practically gives himself a heart attack. You just can't get any leverage with it... you're basically just dropping a metal bar on what you're attacking. Whereas if you had a modest wood axe you could tear a pallet like that apart.

Likewise, fantasy art shows "warhammers" that are like Thor's hammer. A Thor hammer used basically by anybody who isn't Thor is not very scary. You won't be able to swing it hard enough to do that much damage (at least compared to other weapons), and it will be really slow and will tire your arm out almost immediately. You'll probably never even land a hit with it. I would be much more scared of this:

War_hammer2.jpg


It would especially suck to get spiked with that thing. But there are even better weapons than that thing, which is basically a medieval can-opener, if you are fighting somebody who is unarmored. Like a combat knife.

The real medieval maul was like a sledgehammer. It probably had about a 4-foot haft. It was good for the Hundred Years' War because the English longbowman was mainly interested in defeated the French armored knight. The longbow was great for that because it killed the knight's horse. The maul (along with the war hammer or "falcon beak") was a good back up weapon because you could go open up a French knight with it. Good luck trying to hit him with a sword... he was too well-armored!

It's all about the right tool for the job. If I'm unarmored, I'm not that scared of a guy with a sledgehammer. After all, he is slow to swing it and I can probably get away (he has to lug around a sledgehammer). What I'm really scared of if I'm unarmored is something like this:

Ka-bar.gif


That is a seven inch blade that says "bad mother..." all over it. It weighs a mere 1 pound and will ruin you. I'd way rather see a guy come at me with a sledgehammer than with a KA-BAR.

If I'm in a suit of late medieval plate armor, I don't have to worry too much about the knife if I'm at least somewhat mobile. If somebody wants to take down my cheaty plate armor ploy, they will need something that will either take it apart (the war hammer), or just batter the heck out of me (the maul). In which case I probably give up so my peeps can pay my ransom... and if they don't then I still get treated like a nobleman by the other side while I lounge around under house arrest.

Most weapons are designed with a certain purpose in mind. They work best when used for that purpose. Some weapons, like the "Conan maul", never existed because they would not have been good at any purpose to which they would have been put. However, there were some limited uses of sledgehammers because of what was going on with the circumstances of the HYW and such.
 

cattoy

First Post
I like mauls.

Swords are great cutlery.

But mauls for the massive amounts of structural damage wins.

If you can hit anything with them, that is.

If they're so awesome, can you name me one army that used mauls as PRIMARY weapons that conquered anything? I'm drawing a blank.
 

Hussar

Legend
One thing threads like this have made me realize is how small most battlefield weaponry really is. I grew up reading Thor comics, so, to me, that's what a warhammer looks like.

What a shock to go to the museum and see a real warhammer which isn't a whole lot bigger than something a carpenter would use.

Never mind swords and the like. Comic books and movies really, REALLY over exagerate the size of things. Maybe it's Freudian. :D
 

The Shaman

First Post
I would be much more scared of this:

War_hammer2.jpg


It would especially suck to get spiked with that thing. But there are even better weapons than that thing, which is basically a medieval can-opener . . .
Weapons similar to these were still wielded into the 17th century - Cromwell's Ironsides carried them at Naseby, presumably to deal with Royalist cuirassiers.
 

If you can hit anything with them, that is.

If they're so awesome, can you name me one army that used mauls as PRIMARY weapons that conquered anything? I'm drawing a blank.

No. Because they take too much space for formation fighting and are specialist weapons to get into plate armour. Few armies used plate armour (basically European only).

Primary mass combat weapons have always been wielded with the aim of preventing the enemy getting into maul range. Because if you succeed at that, that beats a maul. Or they've been as cheap as possible - giving all the peasants/serfs a pointed stick so they can do something useful.
 

Aloïsius

First Post
Merovingian swords and some arabic swords were on par with japanese swords, because their targets were ligtly armored.

When the average target of a medieval fighter became an ironclad knight, investing a huge sum of money into a very sophisticated sword became silly. Thus, the secrets of the Merovingian smiths were lost, and 12th century swords were forged to be "cheap" and sturdy. With the exception of those made for decoration purpose, of course.

This is why Durandal or Excalibur may have been legendary swords, but no one knows Bayard's sword name.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Merovingian swords and some arabic swords were on par with japanese swords, because their targets were ligtly armored.

When the average target of a medieval fighter became an ironclad knight, investing a huge sum of money into a very sophisticated sword became silly. Thus, the secrets of the Merovingian smiths were lost, and 12th century swords were forged to be "cheap" and sturdy. With the exception of those made for decoration purpose, of course.

This is why Durandal or Excalibur may have been legendary swords, but no one knows Bayard's sword name.

Um... say what? I am highly skeptical of this claim. For one thing, there has never in all of history been a time when a fighter's average target was an ironclad knight. Even in the heyday of full plate armor (which came along very late in the game, long after the 12th century), knights were elite shock troops; the bulk of most armies consisted of spearmen, archers, and the like. The regulars in a well-equipped army might rate a breastplate and helmet, but they wouldn't be fighting in the kind of armor that lets you ignore sword blades.

On what are you basing your statement that Japanese/early European swords were of higher quality than late European swords?
 


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