The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items

[Maldor]

One of the issues with lower magic item campaigns is what to do with all of your cash. I typically allow it to be wasted as part of RP x.p. gain (wenching, gambling,etc.)

I've also thought about normal item wear and tear without having to deal with weapon breakage and crap like that. I've toyed with the idea of requiring new standard gear each level unless masterwork. Haven't run the numbers yet, but it helps drive down CR escalation.

The demons/devils/etc of higher CR/EL's are probably part of the problem for many DM's who don't take the time to have more higher level HUMAN or advanced natural monster encounters. There's no rule against why everyone in any given town can't be 10th level commoners.

jh

Since most XP comes from killing stuff about 80% or better if i had to eyeball it and you have a town of 10,000 10th level NPC's in it is there any reason for the PC's to be in a town suround by a two hundred mile lifeless waste land that the NPC comitted genocide on to get to 10th level each becuase i think i'd vacation somewhere else

 

[Justin Cray]

I think the thread title it misleading and leads to a circular argument. Yes, in a heavily houseruled game the myth is present, but then it's not RAW D&D anymore wich does not have this myth because it's fact.

Arguing whats more fun is not possible because we can't actually experience each others games.

Also I think AOW is a horrible choice for a low magic campaign, I did it with Birthright and it was perfect.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items...

It's a myth that you need magic itemsm and also a myth on needing house rules. All you need to do is know your math. Creature X has N DR and does N amount of damage to AC N on the average (and do factor in critical hits). PC does and average of N to N DR and hits creature on N.

Do the math and scale your encounters. You don't need house rules. All you need is math and say a 20%-25% safety margin in case of bad rolls.

Know your monster and know your PC's.

these are house rules. You are houserulling the CR system to be what it needs to be in your game, not what it is set up as.

Why is it so hard to say "I can run a low magic item game with house rules and hard work that I have to put in because I am changing one of the balance points of the game"? Why do people instead always try to deny that the balance point exists? Its really cool that you are able to change the game but then change enough other things to make it workable. Congratulations. Be proud of it. Revel in your ability to change the game and keep players happy. Then stop using rediculous terms like "myth" to describe the normal facts of the game that you have put so much work into altering.

 

[El Ravager]

Possibly. For some people. By and large, however, I have always felt and will allways feel that 'mechanical balance' is completely unnecessary; and, indeed, often a hindrance to new players, who frequently feel that they have to 'measure up' to some ubiquitous standard in order to have a viable character. Any character can be viable, and those who aren't the 'equal' of the rest of the party are often the most interesting characters in the game.

Regards,
Darrell

Can I just say that I love you?

 

[El Ravager]

these are house rules. You are houserulling the CR system to be what it needs to be in your game, not what it is set up as.

How is it a house rule? The CR system is intended to be a guide to judge relative power. How is using it to determine power relative to PCs who in this case have less gear house ruling CR. Its a guide, using it as a guide is its intended purpose, isn't it?

 

[Schmoe]

The classes are supposedly balanced on their own without magic items.

Not true.

My own personal feeling is that magic items just create stuff-twinks and exponential power escalation. I've heard it argued that magic items are necessary to help fighters balance against wizards at upper levels. I don't buy it because there are also equal items for the wizard so how does that result in balance?

Spellcasters get spells that allow them to deal with a wider variety of situations and opponents. Fighters do not get anything to deal with a wider variety of situations, they simply get better at hitting things. Without magic items, fighters remain limited, while spellcasters continue to increase their versatility.

DR/magic is also not a necessary part of the game and can easily be substituted for normal stuff (like silver or whatever).

If you want a setting with fewer magic items, you can house rule some things to help balance out non-spellcasters.

Magic items can be fun to find but I still think they just create greedy twink-like behavior. Like an overworked family who is living beyond their needs and addicted to painkillers at the same time...

I think magic items are fun. I agree with some other posters, that I haven't seen this behavior.

 

[molonel]

Possibly. For some people. By and large, however, I have always felt and will allways feel that 'mechanical balance' is completely unnecessary; and, indeed, often a hindrance to new players, who frequently feel that they have to 'measure up' to some ubiquitous standard in order to have a viable character. Any character can be viable, and those who aren't the 'equal' of the rest of the party are often the most interesting characters in the game.

The latter statement is a nice sentiment, but only if you consider DM fiat or jawing with the innkeeper "interesting." Frodo was an interesting character in a book, but I'd absolutely hate to play him in a D&D game: "You run, you hide, you get your butt kicked, you run some more, you hide some more. Oh look! Mt. Doom is a hundred miles across the plains. Are you ready to run and hide some more?" Character power is not just combat. It is the ability to influence the game and events in the game with your character's abilities. I'm not going to play a wizard with a 12 Intelligence and an 18 Strength just because it's "interesting."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

How is it a house rule? The CR system is intended to be a guide to judge relative power. How is using it to determine power relative to PCs who in this case have less gear house ruling CR. Its a guide, using it as a guide is its intended purpose, isn't it?

*sigh* Completely redoing the math yourself to account for what your fighters can really hit vs what they are expected to be able to hit at their level isn't using CR as a guide, its igoring it and coming up with your own CR system. Makig your own magic items is a "guide" too, but if I change every one of the formulas, I'm not going to pretend its not a house rule just because "they are guidelines that the DM is encouraged to look at and adjust in specific cases".

 

[I'm A Banana]

People saying balance is an illusion?

Check.

People saying magic items are only for powergamers and min/maxers?

Check.

People saying that there doesn't have to be a mechanical reason to choose a class?

Check.

People ignoring that other people like to play the game differently?

Double-check.

Yep, normal low-magic soapbox thread. Badwrong fun and everything.

 

[Choranzanus]

My problem isn't that magic shouldn't exist, but that D&D assumes certain items exist. To whit.

Kysus's DC 36 Fort Wail of the Banshee is unsurvivable by a great many PCs.

At 20th level, the "classic" four have around the following saves naturally.

Fighter/Cleric: +12 (class) +2-+4 (con)= +14-18 (5%-10%)
Rogue/Wizard: +6 (class) +2-+3 (con)= +8-9 (5%)

Perhaps (depending on the PC) he took Great Fortitude (+2) or Luck of Heroes (+1), but Most non-warriors rarely have many feats to dump on those feats (forgoing something else, like metamagic or weapon finesse). Even if he took both, thats only a 15% higher chance of survival for two feat slots. (the poorer save classes still don't break the 5% barrier)

Now, Assuming the party knows what it will be facing something and prepares, they can add the following spells

* Bears Endurance
* Resistance
* Holy Aura
* Protection from Spells
* Moment of Prescience
* Prayer

(and probably a bunch more from the Spell Compendium, if applicable).

However, if they are caught "flat-footed" or don't have any of these spells memorized/prepared/known (often at the expense of attack or healing magic) the PCs are screwed. They're natural abilities, even at zenith, cannot save them vs. this attack.

Enter the cloaks of resistance, amulets of health, stones of good luck, etc.

Because the game assumes you'll have them, you have to have them. Otherwise, you have slim to no chance of surviving, barring constantly dumping all spell slots on buffing.

So no, the game doesn't assume PCs CAN survive without magical do-hickeys, and we're all a little worse off for it...

This doesn't prove anything, as it talks about specific campaign or in fact, an encounter, not
the game in general. It at best proves that Emirikol has a problem.